Ep 129: All About Lactation Consultants with Jana Birdseye

Today’s interview is with Jana Birdseye from Lactation Consultants of Atlanta .  From ties, to latch issues, to constipation and digestive issues, to pumping support, and feeding schedules, having a successful nursing experience can take work and support.  

In this episode, they chat about essential support that lactation consultants provide and:

• What is an IBCLC and the education process
• When to see a lactation consultant
• The types of issues she commonly sees 
• Signs your baby is showing 
• How a successful nursing journey is more than a “good latch”
• How chiropractic care for infants can improve nursing outcomes

Resources:

Episode 95 - how the birthing process can impact infant feeding

Episode 69 - benefits of pediatric chiropractic care

Episode 63 - breastfeeding tips and resources 

Episode 57 - pediatric chiropractic care and cranial adjustments with Dr. Martin Rosen 

Episode 31 - why is nursing posture important 

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Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:02.754)
Hello, hello, hello. You are listening to the Aligned Birth Podcast. I am one of the hosts today. So you only have one host, Dr. Shannon, prenatal chiropractor. And that means that it is an interview day. And so today, I've been dying, dying to have this guest on, I think since we started the show. And so I'm really excited to have her on today because we're talking about all things.

breastfeeding and lactation support. So we have Jana Birdseye on today. And so she is an IBCLC and RLC. And we're gonna talk about what all of those acronyms mean. But the big thing we're talking about is breastfeeding support, lactation consultants and what they can help with and how they can help. So we're going through what those acronyms mean, how they support mother, baby.

It's more than just a good latch. And we want to go into what are the things to look for when you are working with your infant and you have your newborn and you're trying to establish this nursing connection, which can be difficult, it can be challenging. And so having that support team is so important. So we're going to touch on all of those things today. So Jana, she's a local to Metro Atlanta.

Lactation Consultant, IBCLC. She's Licensed IBCLC RLC. She's the Chief Operating Officer and Director of Corporate Lactation at Lactation Consultants of Atlanta, so that is her business name, and the Sitting Vice President of SELCA. We're also going to go over what that means as well. She graduated with honors from Georgia Northwestern Technical College Lactation Program in December of 2019. She has two daughters and one grandbaby and is happily married to her husband,

And I, again, I am so, so excited to have this guest on the show today. So welcome, Jana.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (01:52.043)
Hey, Dr. Shannon, I'm super excited to be here too. I've been following your birth podcast ever since you got it started, so I try to tune in sometimes. So thank you for having me out today.

Dr. Shannon (01:53.774)
I'm sorry.

Dr. Shannon (02:03.446)
Yes, of course, of course. And we've had some birthy topics, not birthy topics, we've had a lot of birthy topics. We've had some breastfeeding topics on the show as well. So I have like links, I'll put those in the show notes too, because this, I just want this to add to that knowledge because Rachel and I have talked about it, but neither one of us are IVCLCs. We're just moms who did breastfeed and had successful breastfeeding journeys. So we have some knowledge there, but that's why I'm like, no, we need the real knowledge base here. So,

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (02:04.536)
Bye.

Dr. Shannon (02:33.15)
I want to start with what does IBCLC mean? And I know that it's a very rigorous process. And so I want you to go into what that certification looks like and what that means. So people can kind of understand that a little bit better.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (02:52.331)
Okay, IBCLC is International Board Certified Lactation Consultant. And basically what that means is that with our certification, we can practice anywhere in the world, so it's not just specific to the United States. It is international. I mean, it's all across the board. So that's pretty exciting if I ever wanted to, you know, move across the world or anything.

Dr. Shannon (03:20.01)
travel abroad. I know, that's so cool. I didn't know that.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (03:20.195)
Yeah, and so a lot of times with the certification, we actually have to learn lactation specific rules and practices across the world. And then also to practice here in the United States, we have to learn certain health care practices that only apply to the United States. So before our board certification, we kind of go with a worldly view.

for that type of thing. Education, you can get it in three different ways, which is also a little bit confusing, but there's three different pathways. Each pathway, you have to have 95 specific lactation education hours, and then you also have to have clinical practice hours. And so I did pathway two, which was through Georgia Northwestern Technical College in North Georgia.

And I did 14 health science courses and that's expected through all of the pathways. And each pathway just means that you do different levels of clinicals. So pathway two is 300 hours and you kind of, with the college, we actually had different clinical sites. So such as hospital-based, private practice-based, pediatrician, IBCLC.

So we can be in any type of setting to help mothers get breastfeeding off to a good start or even overcome problems.

And then the other path.

Dr. Shannon (04:54.754)
That's cool. Now I, I was gonna say personally, I know in the hospital, I remember having lactation consultant, but then at the pediatrician, I remember I had a really good relationship with the lactation consultant there. And I thought that was so helpful having that at the pediatrician office. So that makes sense that that's a place that you can do those clinical rounds.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (05:15.555)
Mm-hmm. I wish there was a lactation consultant in all pediatricians offices and all hospitals and all OB offices Yeah, I think that would be very beneficial to mothers and in breastfeeding parents and Just babies everywhere and the breastfeeding rates across the United States

Dr. Shannon (05:26.358)
I do too!

Dr. Shannon (05:42.662)
I know, most definitely. And that was one of the things I wanted to mention too was the aspect of, I like that you mentioned that because I think everybody should, every mother-baby dyad should see a lactation consultant, whether they think that there are, I'm using quotes, issues or not. Because

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (05:43.203)
What was that?

Dr. Shannon (06:05.954)
breastfeeding issues can manifest in a bunch of different ways. It doesn't have to just be, oh, the latch is painful or non-efficient feeding. Like there's so many other little things and I know we'll get into that. Okay, so that was IBCLC, correct?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (06:20.939)
IBCLC, yes. International Board Certified Lactation Consultant.

Dr. Shannon (06:23.232)
Okay.

There we go. Now, not everybody, not all lactation consultants are IBCLC, right?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (06:34.371)
No, there are some CLCs, which is a certified lactation counselor. There's CLE, certified lactation educator. So there's different levels of lactation education. And really, it's just the education that kind of sets us apart. We are have carry the gold standard for the health science courses that we have to do. 95 hours, all the clinical hours and CLC is like a

Dr. Shannon (06:51.902)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (07:01.871)
course, I believe, CLE is kind of similar to that. So those are more of like a counseling and they are beneficial for some diets but some who have more clinical needs should definitely see an IV CLC.

Dr. Shannon (07:10.941)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:18.29)
That's what I wanted to hit home was that the difference there in, I feel like it is a very rigorous program and you have so many clinical hours, but it's needed. There's a lot to learn in there if you really want to dive deep into that breastfeeding journey.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (07:35.471)
There is a lot to learn and then even the continuing education hours that we have to do after we have to recertify every five years. So we have to stay on top of things and then there's different specialties that you can kind of pick up and specialize in different areas. Like I would say one of my specialties is babies who have been diagnosed with tongue tie and lip tie and babies with special needs. We'll get into that in a little bit too.

Dr. Shannon (08:03.274)
Mm-hmm. I was gonna say so what brought you into the Lactation world like how did you decide on this as your career journey?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (08:16.259)
Well, through circumstances, I had been in retail marketing management, business management for over 20 years. And then I met my husband and we had a daughter named Anna. She's now eight. Anna was born with Down syndrome. It was a surprise. My husband's mother is a lactation consultant. She actually is the founder of Lactation Consultants of Atlanta.

And prior to Anna's birth, I didn't know if I wanted to breastfeed or not. I was never pressured by my mother-in-law. But as soon as Anna was born, I just kind of looked down and I'm like, does she have Down syndrome? And I mean, it was very traumatic at the time. It's, we're okay now. I mean, she's amazing. But when I finally got to hold her, I realized I wanted to breastfeed. We had a lot of issues.

Dr. Shannon (09:06.38)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (09:14.707)
not related to Down syndrome at all, but related to tongue tie and lip tie. And I went through about six lactation consultants before someone actually took the time with me to really figure out what our issues were. And after that, I breastfed her. I mean, she was partially breastfed, partially formula fed for 22 months. And then throughout the years, my mother-in-law

had kind of talked about retiring or semi retiring on and off and always thought well if I was an RN I would become an IBCLC and take over her business. If I had finished nursing school that I started when I was 18 I would have become an IBCLC and one day I realized you didn't have to be an RN to be an IBCLC and that Georgia Northwestern Technical College was starting a new program

That night I told my husband I was going to become an IBCLC and take over, um, help run his mom's business. And he said, you're crazy. And, but here I am.

Dr. Shannon (10:29.568)
I love that because I did not know that at all. I mean, I know the name Sharon Birdseye because of the, and we're going to put a link to the website there, but I assumed there was a relation, but I didn't know that connection there. That is so cool.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (10:36.483)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (10:40.875)
Really? Yeah, I was never pressured to breastfeed by her. She had paid for me to have a breastfeeding class. And I was going, my breastfeeding class was scheduled like the next day, the day after I found out I had to be induced with Anna because I had low amniotic fluid. So they were like, she's got to come out. So I never got to take a breastfeeding class or anything. So but it was just.

Dr. Shannon (11:09.582)
Oh wow. It's one of those things, yeah. Did you... No good form.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (11:09.755)
one of those things I don't, I don't know. And then not long, oh, I was gonna say not long after I found out about the program for the lactation consultant program, I got laid off from my job that I had for like eight years and I just told my husband, I was like, I'm going to college. I'm not going back to work. And that's what I did.

He supported me, and here we are. He was my biggest support person, so I wouldn't be here without him or my mother-in-law. I mean, she was a huge mentor to me. She didn't ask me to become an IBCLC. She didn't encourage me or toward me, but when I decided to do it, she supported me wholeheartedly and has been a wonderful mentor to learn from.

Dr. Shannon (11:38.959)
And here we are!

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (12:07.855)
So I'm very blessed and very lucky.

Dr. Shannon (12:11.882)
Oh, that's so neat. Yeah, and she's got a wealth of knowledge. So, and I think that's what's really cool about the office and the business that you have too is just that you've got several other IBCLC and lactation consultants there that can help and work with each other and impart their knowledge on each other. And I know with my, I took a breastfeeding class at my job. So this was...

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (12:12.343)
because she is a celebrity.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (12:19.02)
so much knowledge.

Dr. Shannon (12:40.646)
This was many moons ago before I was a chiropractor. And I remember taking the class and thinking, I was like, oh, I do not want a breastfeed. I was just going through all that and all the different, I was just like, this just is not, I was like, I'll pump and that'll be fine. I'll just do that. And then when he was born, I remember, I don't know, I guess it's all the hormones. It was like oxytocin switched or something in my brain. And I was like,

Oh no, I want to do this. And it was such a magical experience and connection with him. So I'm so thankful that, but that class I took beforehand was so instrumental in I think my successful journey in that I felt like I had a good knowledge base before having him. So then I didn't feel like I was scrambling after the fact. So that is one of the things I usually tell my moms in the office. And I always recommend.

especially for like a birth support team is like connect with a lactation consultant beforehand and take some classes beforehand doesn't have to be real in depth, but for me it was like learning different holds and things like that. It's not like I was trying to become certified but just being aware of things because it's something that it may not come naturally, you know, like sometimes it can but it can be it's a learning experience.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (13:41.015)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (13:59.223)
It is a learning experience. It's almost like learning a new dance partner. Like you know your body and you know how it moves, but you don't know this other person's body and how it moves. And then y'all just kind of have to like learn each other when you get here. And just because it's natural, doesn't mean that it's easy. And I wished everybody, if anyone reaches out to me while they're pregnant, I highly encourage them to take a prenatal.

Consultation, so classes are great. Consultation is more one-on-one. So we bring the family in and we take like a full health history. We wanna know how pregnancies go in so we can look at breast development. We can look at any complications getting pregnant that could maybe affect milk supply. We do a breast exam and then we go over all the prenatal education like you mentioned to talk about.

holds, positions, how to know when it's going right, how to know when there are levels of concern and who to reach out to and when to reach out when you have those concerns. And then even just scheduling a visit after baby gets here if there are no concerns, just to stay informed of the process because breastfeeding is ever changing with development of baby.

Dr. Shannon (15:21.158)
That's key because sometimes in the hospital, if you did have a lactation consultant there come to the room, I feel like breastfeeding in the hospital right immediately after birth is completely different than when you're at home and breastfeeding. At least in my experience, it was just like, so yeah, you could have some eyes on you and help with that, but you've got colostrum, it's a little bit different in that hospital setting, if that is where you're giving birth.

And depending upon if you had a vaginal birth or cesarean, all of that can play a part in it. But I think it's important for that after the fact at home. That's why I was so thankful for our pediatrician office that had a lactation consultant because that's when it was like, oh, wait, we do actually have a tie. Those little things that we did end up noticing later on, if I didn't have another set of eyes on it, I probably would have missed it or not known some of the signs to look for. So...

I'm glad that you mentioned that aspect of like checking in after the fact, like once you get home and get settled because it is different. It is a little dance between you and baby.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (16:24.067)
It is.

It's a lot different. And a lot of times it goes very, very well on the hospital because it's all reflexive. I mean, babies are born and they have two survival instincts and that is to breathe and eat. And it's all breathing is reflexive. So just like breathing is reflexive for babies and for us, feeding in the early days is very reflexive behavior. And sometimes when those reflexes start to integrate as when you see

Dr. Shannon (16:33.931)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (16:56.267)
And what I mean by integration is when they actually become less reflexes and more purposeful movements. So when those purposeful movements come into play, sometimes you kind of see breastfeeding kind of slowly decline. So that's why it's really important to have an IBCLC that you're comfortable with or someone with breastfeeding knowledge that you're comfortable with to just kind of make sure everything's going okay.

Dr. Shannon (17:05.614)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (17:26.682)
Mm-hmm exactly now I want to talk a little bit about Some of the things that you work with infants and now getting into like I Guess I want to touch on how it's that a successful breastfeeding journey is more than just a good latch or the issues are more than just

a latch type of thing. So sometimes I don't know if maybe some moms just kind of focus on that, like, oh, well, the latch is good. I always hear that in the office too, because I always ask, OK, how is nursing going? And they're like, oh, I think the latch is good. But I'm like, there's so much more to it, because sometimes I'll look and I'll be like, man, I see some little lip listers. Or if mom nurses in the office, I might hear some clicking. And I'm like, well, so there could be other things. So I want to know, and this might be a very, very.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (18:12.719)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (18:21.89)
broad range of like, what are the things, why should someone, what issues did you go take your infant to a lactation consultant for? But that just, what are the things that you kind of help with in that area and what are the things that you're looking for with a good nursing journey?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (18:38.671)
So I sometimes hear that the latch looks okay and looks like he has a good deep latch, but it's kind of painful. So nipple pain is a huge red flag. It should not hurt. Your nipples may be tender as they get adjusted, but that should go away after a couple of days. So nipple pain, you're looking at weight gain. If a baby is

extremely fussy even if they are eating and gaining well if they are just extremely fussy it could be gas issues where they're swallowing a lot of gas because of a shallow latch or mom's fast let down or dairy sensitivity yeah any number of things. We're looking at peas and poos

Dr. Shannon (19:29.202)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (19:31.795)
We want to see adequate amount of peas every day. We want to see an adequate amount of poos every day. And because, you know, if it's coming out, it's going in. Oh, let's see, what else do we look for? I'm just a healthy breastfeeding relationship. Like we don't want mom. Overly stressed, I mean, there is going to be some stress in the early days, because one, you have a whole new human and you're

Dr. Shannon (19:42.332)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (20:01.668)
channel.

released from the hospital here, here you go, keep this little thing alive. So it's very tense for, uh, very tense for new moms. And then you're going on lack of sleep because babies are nocturnal. So they are meant to be up all night and until they get adjusted to our kind of routines. Um, Oh, we look for babies who might be a little bit more sleepy than others. We also look for jaundice.

Dr. Shannon (20:09.598)
Exactly.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (20:33.935)
tongue tie, left tie, there's certain things that we can't diagnose because we don't have that.

Dr. Shannon (20:35.334)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (20:42.419)
medical licensure such as like an MD who can diagnose with Tunti and Lipti and then diagnose jaundice, but we can look for the things and then we can report back to the other healthcare team Yes, yes we can so if somebody if a baby's like really sleepy and maybe a little bit Yellow, then we would refer them back to your pediatrician and say hey

Dr. Shannon (20:55.45)
you can totally recommend a referral. Yeah.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (21:11.095)
they may have some higher belly levels so you might want to check that.

Dr. Shannon (21:20.35)
You had mentioned to this, or I guess we both mentioned, kind of this mother-baby dyad, because sometimes, yes, there are issues with infant nursing as far as like, it is a problem with the infant, jaw alignment, whatever it might be, shallow latch, like those things. But then sometimes there is the issue of, there's some, not that there's something wrong with mom, I don't wanna say that, but that,

there could be an issue there as far as, and not that forceful letdown is an issue, but if baby's having a hard time keeping up with that and managing that, then it's kind of working together with mom and baby. So there's ways, and I know you can speak to moms about that as far as, okay, there's things that we can do to help baby with if there is that forceful letdown.

It's not always, it takes two to tango. So make two to tango, two to make the baby, but it also, there's that other little like rhythm and flow that you have with baby as well. So I like that your eyes are on baby, but it's also on mom too, to help in that aspect of things.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (22:32.907)
That is a unique position that we as IVCLCs are in is that we have two patients. When we are working in a consultation, we have the mom as a patient, and then we have the baby as a patient. Because like you said, for the breastfeeding relationship to work out, you have to have both patients in a good place. And so sometimes you have a mom who has nipple pain, low milk supply, which could be.

hormonal or medical on the mother's side or it could also be poor latch and poor transfer on the baby's side so you kind of have to gauge what's going on there. You can have engorgement or too much milk, fast let down. You can have all this going on one side because the baby latches really well to one side and not really well to the other side.

It can be a lot. We actually spend in our first visit, we spend about two hours with the diad.

Dr. Shannon (23:34.358)
That's so good. I love it. And I'm okay. So now I need to throw in here. I don't, it's like, I already know this, but so Jana and I have worked, I don't know how many infants we've worked with together. So that's one of my absolute favorite things is you send me infants, I send you infants. It's like,

it's something about that birth support team. So not that you're not directly related to birth, but that postpartum, I mean, it's all part of it. So I always consider you like an essential member of the birth support team for the moms in my office, but we have been able to work with quite a few infants together. And I feel like all of those have been really successful. I feel like everyone that we've had mom has been able to nurse.

I'm trying to think. I'm like, I'm pretty sure like it's, whether it got to the point, we're getting there and some of them it's, yes, trying to get there. But I wanna speak to that. I love the relationship that we have because you and I will even, with obviously patient permission, we talk to each other and so we can say, okay, this is what I'm noticing and this is what you're noticing. And like, this is what I'm telling mom, okay, this is what I'm telling mom to do to help with that and what you're finding and what I'm finding. And...

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (24:23.367)
Yes, in some form or other. Yeah, getting there.

Dr. Shannon (24:50.15)
I think that just increases exponentially how well that nursing journey can go. I've seen it. I think it's pretty cool.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (25:00.815)
100%, yes. I love celebrating with you and their celebrations and then kind of bouncing ideas off of each other. And I honestly wish that every breastfeeding family realized how important a good body worker could be in their breastfeeding journey, just because of, like you mentioned, the different types of births, T-section births. And I mean, you can go into more detail on the body side of things,

Sometimes infants who are born via C-section have a little bit of neck tension or preference to look to one side. And so those are and then the tongue tie issue that can also restrict body muscles and affect feeding. So I just I wish everybody would seek out body work.

Dr. Shannon (25:48.814)
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I know. I think it just goes, it goes so hand in hand and so well with your lens and it's like having a lot of different lenses on that mother-baby dyad can be so helpful. And I know I do have certain, I mean I kind of ask some of the same questions that you do as well though because I'm asking about, you know, bowel movements as well.

fussiness, clenched fists, like that extreme tension with feeding. I feel like that's one of the commonalities that we've seen in a lot of infants that we've worked with together is you know they'll come with the nursing issue but I'm noticing like and you notice too it's getting mom to notice a little bit of like this is abnormal tension in the baby this is really clenched fist this baby is really ticked off.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (26:20.264)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (26:38.09)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (26:40.95)
you know, and what that tension is from. A lot of times it can be from the birth process. It doesn't have to be traumatic, but that's where I like to think that bodywork can come in, that pediatric care, that nervous system regulation to help ease that, which can then lead to, okay, now let's look at the latch and let's get the latch good and let's get the rest of that journey going well. And a lot of times too, and I know you've noticed this with the infants that we've worked with is that there's tends to be a...

bowel dysfunction, not in every case, but there tends to be a bowel dysfunction that goes hand in hand with a nursing dysfunction because you got to think it's just both ends of the just both ends of the spectrum there you know. So.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (27:19.639)
both ends of the spectrum. That's funny because every time I follow up with a patient after they've been with you, I'm like, oh, well, did baby poop really good after y'all's visit? And most of the time they're like, yeah. And I'm like, because you get this lined up, it gets to work in a little bit better, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (27:39.95)
And then it's like, once baby is more calm, I've noticed with some of them, it's like, okay, now nursing is better. We don't have as much tension in the body. And then it's easier to assess some of the, okay, what else is going on that could be causing some of those issues? And I have, there's tons of episodes we have that talk about the...

how the nursing, the birthing process can impact feeding as well. And then there's a, I did an interview with a cranial sacral therapist and a pediatric chiropractor guru. And so those episodes go more in depth with it and they talk a lot about that there. But let's go over, what are some of the things? Okay, so we have, when we were chatting before,

I always send my interview guests an outline, so I don't like spring questions on them that they don't necessarily know about. We were chatting about the list of things that could be a breastfeeding issue. I have certain things that I always ask. I'm always asking, do they nurse well on both sides? I know you're probably asking that same question as well, because a lot of times that can be, I'm looking at top bone in the neck, but also you're looking at it with a different lens as far as what could be going.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (28:52.772)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (29:03.002)
on there. That's one of the main ones that I'm asking, but in your list you had that side preference and then breast refusal. Do you see that a lot with infants that come in or what is maybe one of the most common things that you see when working with patients?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (29:24.427)
The most common thing is nipple pain and low milk supply. And then babies who are compensating. So feeding might be going well, but baby's just super fussy and mom just kind of knows that something is off. So we look for compensations or signs from the baby's body that there are compensations going on. Like you mentioned the...

The lip blisters tell me that the baby's holding on with their lips and that they're not able to latch on with their tongue as well as they should be.

Dr. Shannon (30:07.786)
What about like a clicking sound? What does that typically indicate? Because those are things I think that mom can notice. Like, oh, I see blisters on the lip. Like you can kind of see them and they're just like white little blisters. But another thing is like clicking sounds with nursing. What does that typically indicate?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (30:26.217)
You would be surprised that the parents who don't notice the lip blisters until you start to kinda point them out and they're like, oh, really, does it hurt? And no, they don't typically hurt. It's more like a callus. And then yeah, clicking. Clicking could be a sign of tongue dysfunction and that could either be from immaturity, restrictions, muscle tensions.

And it could also come from mom's fast let down. So if baby's really just trying to work hard to keep up with that milk that's letting down, that could also be a sound of the clicking. But most of the time it's a loss of suction. Also most of the time, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (31:02.946)
When you say, oh, okay, that loss of suction. When you say, I think one thing I hear from a lot of moms is if they didn't have a successful journey was that they weren't making enough milk. How?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (31:10.301)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:26.786)
how factual is a low milk supply? Like how often is it truly a low milk supply versus there is just some dysfunction in the breastfeeding dyad instead?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (31:40.579)
Honestly, a true low milk supply is very rare actually. And most of the time it is what we call a perceived low milk supply. A lot of that comes from today's social media content. You have these TikTokers and Instagram famous people who have their full cooler or full refrigerator full of milk and they're like, look what all I can do.

And it kind of makes us moms feel inadequate, but a good milk supply is about one to one and a half ounces per hour. So that's about 24 ounces in one day. And that's beginning at about a month old up to a year old. So it's not ounces and ounces and ounces every time that you pump. It really just depends. Each mom has a different.

different output and each baby has a different need. So long as you're feeding and latching the baby and making that demand, then you should be able to produce enough milk.

Dr. Shannon (32:48.563)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (32:48.631)
And then sometimes, like you mentioned, transfer issues. If baby's not transferring well, that can also cause a low milk supply.

Dr. Shannon (32:57.81)
Yeah, and that's why I wanted to touch on that as far as how often it really is a true low milk supply. Now in your office, it's, I mean, it's harder when you give a baby a bottle, you can see how much they've eaten, right? But when you nurse, you're kind of like, I don't know, I don't know how much they ate. So how do you, what do you do with parents and how do you determine the volume that the baby is eating?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (33:24.515)
So in the office during a visit, we do what we call a weighted feed. So we will take a weight with a very sensitive scale before baby goes to the breast. And then we will take a weight after baby goes to the breast and we will measure how much is transferred. But that's only a little snapshot in the big picture. But then we tell parents to keep up with output. How many wet diapers, how many dirty diapers? Watch your baby.

If baby's always rooting, always looking hungry, always chewing their hands, and those are signs that baby may not be feeding well. And then you can also see that your baby gets full throughout a feeding. So babies have a gas gauge and it's completely different than the gas gauge in your car. So this is empty, hands are up, and as baby starts to fill up, the hands go down and the hands open. So there are signs that you can pay attention.

throughout the day and throughout each feeding session on whether your baby's getting enough or not. But it's very.

Dr. Shannon (34:25.986)
I know, that's, I think that's important. Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (34:29.783)
very nerve wracking because yeah, there's no little ounce markers on our breasts to tell us how much baby's taking in each feed.

Dr. Shannon (34:38.21)
I know, it would be nice. Just a little mark and be like, okay. Yeah.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (34:42.247)
Okay, you're good. You're good. But um,

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (34:48.103)
And then again, each feed, time is not a good measure. So each feed can last different amounts of time. And sometimes baby's thirsty, sometimes baby needs comforting. Sometimes it's just a snack. Sometimes it's a little lunch and sometimes it's a big old dinner. So just like our needs change throughout the 24 hours daily, so does baby's.

Dr. Shannon (35:14.026)
Mm-hmm. That's a good point to make Let's see I Want to touch on a little bit with Birth presentation so because I will notice things too if there's been breach and then it's also too if We ended up with a cesarean for breach and then even sunny side up

and slower, fast descent. Those were some of the things that you mentioned. So let's chat a little bit about how the birth process can show up as a latch dysfunction in your office or what you notice with those birth processes.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (35:59.023)
So I always talk a lot about pregnancy. So I wanna know how well your pregnancy has went if baby was stuck in one position throughout the pregnancy, because if you see a tight baby, that could be a sign. And then as a baby is born, they actually, if this is like the pelvic bone, baby actually passes under the pelvic bone and kinda opens up their neck. And so kinda flexes out.

Dr. Shannon (36:24.822)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (36:28.147)
And that's the first sign of a good latch, is baby's able to look up and open their mouth really, really wide. And so sometimes with the fast descent, or if there is a slow descent and they get stuck, or if they're breach or sunny side up or born via C-section, they don't get that nice opening as they pass through the birth canal and under the pelvic bone to have that nice release.

that leads to better breastfeeding behavior. Do you?

Dr. Shannon (37:02.306)
Mm-hmm, and it doesn't mean that if you did have that birth process that you're you know, your breastfeeding journey is doomed But it's just be aware that like okay Maybe you do need some additional support in helping that breastfeeding journey by seeking, you know pediatric chiropractic care that I be CLC like having those other eyes on there to help with Establishing a good latch and releasing some of that tension making certain nervous system is working. Well, like I think you know

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (37:16.417)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (37:32.418)
that can go a long ways too.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (37:34.803)
And just because it can happen doesn't mean that it is going to happen. But like you said, yes, having those members on your team is good so that you can follow up with them and just prevent any problems or look for problems that might arise. But sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.

Dr. Shannon (37:40.728)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (37:55.374)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm with nipple pain You said that was one of the common issues that moms present to you with what are Some of the common causes of that is it Typically a baby issue or a mommy shoot. I mean, I know There's gonna be Very, you know lots of different degrees in there of what's causing the nipple pain

but how do you help moms and babies who are suffering with that?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (38:29.635)
So the first thing we do is work on positioning. One of the number one things that I notice is that moms often support baby on the back of the head when they're trying to latch the baby. And a lot of times if you're pushing on the back of the baby's head, it actually pushes their chin into their chest, which makes it harder for that mouth to open wide. So we work on positioning of the mom to allow baby to get that nice flex position.

That doesn't always fix things, but if we support the neck and not the head, that also gives the baby a better chance at latching. And a lot of times in our office, we practice what we call baby-led attachment. And that's kind of just letting mom lay back, baby, skin to skin and let baby root for the breast. And you'd be surprised at how many babies will latch on to the breast without any assistance from mom.

And a lot of times by letting baby use their natural reflexes, that will fix a lot of the latching issues and a lot of the nipple pain. But nipple pain can come from...

Dr. Shannon (39:40.094)
Mm-hmm. I know you talk about that because I had Parents that I've worked with that saw you and I would be like, okay So what did Jana say and she's like, well, we did this thing where I laid back and baby just naturally tried to get up I was like, okay

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (39:54.375)
It can be very nerve wracking for moms. I'm like, and especially sometimes on our first visit, I'm like, I know we just met and everything, but you gotta trust me on this. You have, let's just lay back, put your baby on your chest, relax, enjoy them. Mom and I will talk and get some questions answered and things like that, but a baby can get to the breast on their own and they can latch on their own. And it is a beautiful thing when it happens. It doesn't happen every time.

but it does happen a lot of the times. But usually if it doesn't happen, there is something functional going on with the baby that can make it harder for them.

Dr. Shannon (40:36.603)
Mm-hmm. And that's what's cool is you use all these little things to say, okay, there is something else going on. I mean, I'm always looking at the same thing too. I'm like, gosh, there is, you know, something else going on. What's going on here? Who else can we pull in? To help with this mother-baby dyad. I do I want to mention one thing as far as we talk a lot about although this is all about

um, IBCLC and infant nursing, it's that we've already talked about. It's the dance with mom and baby. And there's a rhythm there in that. Um, I think sometimes moms come in and bring baby in for chiropractic care. And then they, they want to bring, you know, quotes again, the problem in, like we want to work with what the issue is. So I'll be seeing infant, but I do see really good results when I can get mom and infant under care, because if mom is stressed as well,

And I'm merely looking at it as like, how is the nervous system functioning? So can we help calm mom down? Like that's all I'm really looking at with this. Like, can we bring some ease and some calmness to mom? Now, yes, if baby is more calm, that tends to make mom not feel as stressful. But there is something to be said for both mom and baby to be under care because they are so just intimately connected.

and it can make a huge difference. And I know that you know that too, because I think you've even mentioned that before. And I think I've said it time and time again, I've been like, oh, I wish this mom would get under care because there's just a lot of stress there on both sides. Ha ha ha.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (42:04.076)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (42:08.271)
both sides. And a lot of times, even if the baby's not making those compensations, sometimes a mom will be making those compensations for the babies, such as leaning up to feed and then you know, you've got all this neck and shoulder pain. So if they tell me baby's going to the chiropractor, I'm like, Oh, okay, did you get your adjustment to you?

Dr. Shannon (42:22.226)
Oh yeah.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (42:29.839)
So I'm a big advocate for self care.

Dr. Shannon (42:30.99)
I know I love it. Yes. I mean, it's, it's very, very helpful for both, both mom and baby. Let's see any other, any other things you want to add as far as that what denotes a successful dream? Maybe, maybe talk about the biomechanics of

of nursing because it's not just latching like it's baby has to latch we have to have you know good jawline we have to have good nerve supply there but then they have to be able to suck like maintain that suction and swallow and breathe so it's kind of like all the things that we're looking at right it sounds really complicated when you put it like that right so yeah can you go through or highlight some of that or where

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (43:21.519)
when you put it like that, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (43:28.079)
there could be dysfunctions in many different points of that process.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (43:32.311)
many different points. So we do an oral assessment on every single baby and one of the most important things we look for is tongue function. So if this, let's see, if my arm is the lower gum line and my hand is the baby's tongue, you actually want the baby's tongue to extend out over the lower gum line, then it has to grasp onto the breast tissue.

hold the breast tissue, massage the breast tissue, and then it has to go up and then down and create a big, big vacuum for the milk to come out. And it has to do that over and over again. And then the other, it's, oh, my table's moving, sorry. And then if the tongue has good function, then everything else kind of falls into place. Like if you have.

Dr. Shannon (44:16.782)
I'm out.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (44:23.683)
too much jaw movement during a feeding session, then that's a compensation. That can lead to nipple pain. That means babies having to use these extra muscles to hold on because they can't hold on to the tongue, hold on with the tongue properly.

Dr. Shannon (44:31.171)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (44:41.247)
And then the holding on the lips. So there are a lot of compensations, but that's That's the basics of it you want a really good tongue function And you need all of those that and there are so many muscles that help to control the tongue. So it's just all Your whole body breastfeeding is a whole body thing It's not just a mouth thing. It's a whole body function

Dr. Shannon (44:54.011)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (45:07.991)
And for me to know what is a good breastfeeding relationship is, is the mom happy with her journey? The awesome thing about breastfeeding is that it is your personal story to tell. And so you can guide wherever it goes. And sometimes there are hiccups along the way and we may have to make a little side turn but ultimately

It's your journey and you can decide what works best for you and your family.

Dr. Shannon (45:42.51)
Mm-hmm. I know. And that's a beautiful thing though. You know, like that can... There's people out there to help. I'm glad that you mentioned and you said that it's a whole body function because I don't know if you've seen those the picture too on the internet. It's like a... It looks like a cadaver thing or just like parts of a body where it shows the tongue and how it's actually connected all the way down to like the feet. You know, like it's...

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (46:09.422)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (46:10.174)
and you get that connection like it literally is a whole body function. It's a whole body function.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (46:14.014)
How awful.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh, and all the reflexes, like the hands, baby needs to be touching, the feet touch, the chest, the chin, like it is a full body connection. And the more baby is connected to the mom, better the breastfeeding relationship's gonna be in the latch.

Dr. Shannon (46:37.314)
Mm-hmm, exactly. Let's see anything else that you wanted to mention as far as Things that you work with things that you see how you help Mom and baby maybe something that we haven't talked about today that we should

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (46:56.443)
Well, of course, I like to specialize in babies with Down syndrome, of course. So I have seen quite a few babies with Down syndrome. They're referred to me by the Down syndrome Association of Atlanta. So that's something that I'm very, very passionate about because I know what it feels like to experience that the bias that you can get when you have a child with special needs.

Dr. Shannon (47:22.027)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (47:25.455)
Um, like I mentioned, my, my breastfeeding issues were not related to Down syndrome at all. It was, I was in severe, severe nipple pain and for quite a few weeks I thought that was normal. Like, oh, this is normal. It's going to go away. And it just, it never went away. So I, that's just to have someone really dive in and find out what is going on versus just kind of saying, oh.

Dr. Shannon (47:42.845)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (47:56.191)
your baby has Down syndrome or your baby has different abilities or a special need, that's kind of why you are having issues. That's to be expected.

Dr. Shannon (48:05.854)
Yeah, to like write it off and be like, oh, well, you know, that's the issue. Yeah, because that's not the case. Yeah.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (48:10.527)
Mm-hmm everything it's not the case not always I mean there

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (48:17.571)
There are some instances where the low muscle tone or things like that can be causing issues, but it's not always the case. I've seen quite a few.

Dr. Shannon (48:21.597)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (48:25.659)
I have a...

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (48:29.047)
successful relationships breastfeeding. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (48:29.806)
I was gonna say, I have a mom. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because, and you mentioned your story because I have a mom who recently too, ended up with a Down syndrome baby, like did not know during her pregnancy as well either. And so she gets adjusted, baby gets adjusted. He's one of my favorite, one of my favorite patients. He's the sweetest thing I've ever seen. And they have a really good nursing journey now, like, you know, a couple of little hiccups there, but...

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (48:49.789)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (48:56.728)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (48:59.562)
And I know in their instance too, it's that low motor tone that can be probably one of the biggest issues with that, but it doesn't, he's doing just fine. So I think it's important to know, yeah, that, you know, and I'm glad you have that specialization in helping parents who do end up with a child that has a little bit of special needs because you might, you're gonna need that little bit of, that other lens and that extra help, you know?

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (49:07.402)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (49:23.755)
You are, definitely. And the mom who helped me actually also had a daughter that had special needs. So it's kinda, you just have, if you know, you know kinda thing.

Dr. Shannon (49:37.898)
Mm-hmm. I like that you have that in your wheelhouse of things that you can offer Families and parents

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (49:47.599)
Send me all the special babies. I love it when my worlds collide. Love it, 100%. Ha ha.

Dr. Shannon (49:50.638)
Oh, the special moves. Yes. It's so fun. Okay, so tell us about Lactation Consultants of Atlanta, like where people can reach you, who all is there, and like, you know, how people can get in touch with you guys.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (50:10.711)
Well, we have our website, which is breastfeedingatlanta.com. We are a legacy business. I think I've already mentioned that my mother-in-law is the founder. We are Atlanta's longest private practicing lactation clinic. We've been in business for over 30 years. So you could almost say that she started private practice in the Atlanta area.

So she is there, myself. We have Melissa as one of our other lead consultants, and then we have some other contractors who work with us as well. So I think there's about five or six of us on board right now. We have a website, we have a Facebook at Lactation Consultants of Atlanta, Instagram, and then our phone number, 770-644-0555.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (51:05.363)
We have somebody available until 9 p.m. at night to answer the phones because breastfeeding is not just a nine to five thing and Um, so I we try to do our best to be available when moms have those panicky moments and

Dr. Shannon (51:13.745)
Nope.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (51:24.943)
You can book 24-7 on our website because you'd be surprised when you're up at 2 o'clock in the morning you're like I need help as soon as possible and we do try to keep some last minute.

Dr. Shannon (51:35.798)
I get a lot of patient bookings because I do online booking too and I get a lot and I'm like, oh, they booked it 2 a.m. They must have been nursing. And you guys also do that online booking. No, that's huge and that's easy.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (51:40.751)
Uh huh. Yeah, they must have been nursing. They must have been having a rough night. Yeah, it's very common. So that has been pivotal in the business.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (51:57.275)
Just the overnight booking the online booking. Yeah. Yeah, we also run a free support group once a month And then we do corporate lactation. Yeah So the support group is free for anybody It doesn't have to be one of our patients and we it's hybrid so you can attend online or you can come in person to the office Then we also offer support groups with some pediatricians offices

Dr. Shannon (52:03.06)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (52:06.774)
That's what I was about to add. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (52:11.657)
Okay.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (52:25.919)
we rent hospital grade breast pumps. So if anybody needs to rent a breast pump because they're having some supply issues or if maybe possibly in the NICU, we do the Amita hospital grade breast pumps. And then we also help businesses establish corporate lactation programs so that they can meet all the state and federal regulations for a mom who returns to work while breastfeeding.

Dr. Shannon (52:30.903)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (52:55.894)
That's so good because that's when I took my class. It was through one of the corporate educations. So yeah, when I took the class and was like, I don't want to do this. And then I was like, wait, I do.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (53:01.111)
Really? Okay. Yeah. But it's free. Your company pays for it. Yeah. So we set up, we set up breast pumps for a lot of our corporations and do the classes and return to work consultations. That's, that's something I'm really passionate about because like you, I used to be corporate America. And going back to work and breastfeeding and leaving baby at home and it's so hard.

Dr. Shannon (53:29.814)
That's tough. That's tough. I know. I, yeah, I nursed both of mine for two years. Well, one was like 20 months, one was 24 months. And I pumped for like, it felt like forever. You know, it just felt like forever. But yeah, I carry my little pumper on, I come home from work and be like, this is how productive I was, you know, like. But I'm glad I had the ability to do that though. So that's the big thing.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (53:43.179)
Mm-hmm.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (53:56.915)
Right? It's hard not to measure your success and ounces when you're working and pumping mom. Well, I had a good day today, honey.

Dr. Shannon (54:04.07)
I know. I had a good day, yeah. And then noticing the changes with your body and everything. I mean, yeah, the whole nursing journey is just, it's very, it is very interesting how your body changes, how baby's body changes and how the milk changes. It's just so cool. I know, it's so cool. It's so divinely designed and created and I just think it's really neat. So, thank you so much. Yeah, I figured you would.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (54:15.555)
beautiful.

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (54:26.319)
100% in green.

Dr. Shannon (54:31.222)
Thank you so, so much for being here and taking the time out of your schedule to chat with me today. I had, I learned a lot. So this is great. I love working with infants with you. I hope, hope everybody has learned something from this. Please reach out to Jana if you've got.

questions or anything she's a wealth of knowledge and Again, thank you so much for being here and then stay tuned friends. We'll have another episode for you next week

Jana Birdseye, IBCLC (55:02.607)
Thank you.