Ep 57: Pediatric Chiropractic Care and Cranial Adjustments - Interview with Dr. Martin Rosen

Dr. Shannon sits down with pediatric chiropractor, author, and instructor, Dr. Martin Rosen to talk about all things pediatric chiropractic care and craniopathy.  In most of our episodes, we’re talking about prenatal care and pregnancy, but if you’ve listened to any of our postpartum episodes, you know we talk about ways to support yourself after birth.  Not only do we discuss continuing under chiropractic care, but the impact the birthing process can have on your baby and what you can do to facilitate their healing as well.  
In this episode, we discuss Dr. Rosen’s book about Common vs. Normal when it comes to cranial distortions and pediatric neurological development and lots of other topics including:

• How birth impacts the infant cranium
• Why cranial shape is important
• What is the dura mater, dural tension, cerebrospinal fluid and how all body systems are impacted by birth
• The importance of the first 2 years of life
• What are milestones and primitive reflexes (and yes - why crawling is important!) 
• Specific pediatric conditions we’ve both worked with: torticollis, tongue tie, plagiocephaly
• Why tummy time is important
• When to seek outside help
• What pediatric chiropractic and cranial adjustments look like 

Resources: 

Dr. Martin Rosen - website
Dr. Martin Rosen - Instagram
Peak Potential Institute
Wellesley Chiropractic
 
This podcast was created from a desire to share conversations and interviews about topics from pregnancy and birth to motherhood and the importance of a healthy body and mind through it all.  Our goal is to bring you fun, interesting, and helpful conversations that excite you and make you want to learn more.  We hope what we share will make an impact and help someone else along their journey.  We believe that when you are aligned in body, mind, and your intuition, you can conquer anything! 

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Transcript

Unknown 0:00

Hello America, listeners and friends today, Dr. Shannon here, one of the hosts of the show and we have an interview today and today's interview. The topic is going to be all about pediatric chiropractic care pediatric radiography, common versus normal. And we're going to just talk about all of the good things there. So today with our interview, we have Dr. Martin Rosen, so he is a chiropractor. He graduated 91, someone who laude from Life Chiropractic College. And He currently lives in the New England area with his wife. He has two daughters. His wife is also a chiropractor as well. But he's been teaching seminars chiropractic based seminars since 1979 and sharing the knowledge that he has and the gifts that he has and what he has seen pediatric chiropractic care, its ability to do and impact people's lives. So mainly looking at FIT Chiropractic in the show, which is before we've talked about, there's over 200 current techniques in chiropractic world. So that's one of the techniques there but really looking at pediatrics cranial adjusting and the chiropractic philosophy as well. So he's the past president of a couple of committees, lead instructor for icpa for 15 years. So you've heard this on the show, the International chiropractic Pediatric Association. That's when I first met Dr. Rosen. I was able to take his seminar there. And then for now over 40 years he's been at the forefront of chiropractic pediatric care specifically pediatric cranial apathy. And so we're going to talk about one of his new books today and talk about how he is influencing the pediatric chiropractic world. So I'm so excited to have him on the show today, Dr. Martin

Unknown 1:40

Schoen thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to get you to talk to your audience and to talk to you and yeah, it's been a while since we've seen each other person but um, I really appreciate you having me here and I'm ready to get started where you are.

Unknown 1:53

Yeah. So the book that you have out recently now you have you have a textbook that I remember I bought that when I took your class and that's geared more towards chiropractic. Professionals as far as like adjusting techniques and specifics. But the new one that you have out, it's called it's on the head common versus normal cranial distortions and what it all means. So that's kind of what we're going to highlight today because this book is more for the Layperson. I feel like

Unknown 2:22

what was written for June for two weeks in a row with my wife, Dr. Nancy Watson, and it was written yes to give the general public an idea of what we do as chiropractors but also to help chiropractors facilitate the process. I mean, we spend hours in our office, talking to me about what we do, why we do and how we do it, and this book covers a lot of why we do it and how we do it, so that chiropractors can also use it to facilitate the conversation in their offices as well. But yeah, it's also mainly written for the general public to get an understanding really of the in depth amount of work that goes into not only being a chiropractor, but the importance of chiropractic care in the pediatric population.

Unknown 2:58

Yes, because I when I was going through the book, I was like, oh, yeah, I say this in the office. Oh, I like how we explain this. Like they gave me little tidbits of like, Hey, this is how we can explain it. So we're gonna go into really, how we live our lives through her nervous system and what that means but then how birth impacts the infant cranium. Why is cranial shape important? What is the dura mater? What are the parts of the nervous system? Why is the first two years so important milestones, reflexes, specific conditions and then when to seek help. So that's kind of our outline today to be going through the book a little bit, but one of the first things I wrote down when because at the beginning, you really highlight like, it's kind of an overview of like, why is this important? And what is the nervous system? And so you say, we live our lives through our nervous system. So explain a little bit of what that means.

Unknown 3:50

Sure. So they're the only controlling system in your body is your central nervous system, brain and spinal cord, it tells you everything that's happening to you everything that's going on everything and process everything in your environment. So is the basis for how you live every other system, digestive system, immune system, you know, respiratory, respiratory system, Elimination System, all that is connected directly to the nervous system, you shut down the nervous system, and none of the other things work. So what I mean by we live our lives, your nervous system, the development of the nervous system, how we function, or how we teach it to function, or how it learns to function depending on nature versus nurture. That is how you're going to live the rest of your life. The nervous system is predicated on taking in input in the first two years of life, developing a foundation and once that foundation is developed, you're going to carry that foundation with you for the rest of your life. So everything you do think, say breathe, get rid of it, your body is mitigated by how well your nervous system is functioning. It's really that simple.

Unknown 4:50

It is and you know, you can kind of see it in I mean adults that you work with, because if we've got these learned behaviors and patterns, and you know, we're always carrying a baby on that right side, then now you kind of see what that means as far as that nervous system function, right? Like it's those those patterns and so that's how you're functioning in the whole world is through that nervous system. Now, I want to you then go into a little bit of how does birth impact the cranium and really looking at that, that infant chiropractic care, and some of those differences there with the birthing process?

Unknown 5:29

Well, you know, what's interesting, I had an epiphany. A couple of weeks ago, I was doing another podcast and I showed you, my Doula who was on the podcast with me, and it was also another chiropractor, and we're talking about primal reflexes, and we'll get into those probably a little bit later, but primary steps to survival reflexes and she said to me, that she feels one of the first primal reflexes is the ability to baby to flip and down. Like it maybe doesn't even do that in utero, that there's an issue of right away. So the birth process, obviously, is supposed to be a natural process in most cases, but the whole idea of the birth process from the moment the child is conceived through the entire development, you're also forming the nervous system, you know that in in in utero, the baby can actually distinguish pain and pleasure by the third trimester. So even while the baby's in your uterus, it's also developing its reaction to the world. And then when the baby comes through the birth canal, so you're changing what you're doing as you're dealing with a molding process as the baby comes down through the birth canal, the cranium starts to mold that's why the cranial is so pliable on the walls, and that's why babies also come out kind of looking a little bit content and that molding process is twofold. One, it sets up the structure of the German Angel system, but Chile helps prime what we call the primary respiratory mechanism, which is basically the mechanism that allows for movement of cerebrospinal fluid, and I'll talk more about that a little bit. So when the baby comes down the birth canal and goes through this molding process as it goes through the transition, it increases pressure from the uterus and 10 millimeters of mercury to literally 100 millimeters of mercury. Sodium pressure increases there to learn like priming of babies, and when the baby comes out, they take that first breath and as they the first six to seven days, then the cranium starts to unwind again and open up. So the whole process is designed to basically give the baby a jumpstart onto the planet. And so the birth process is really important because not only does it give me the baby a jump spot, functionally, but structurally, and also neurologically because as we said, the babies are ready determining nervously pain and pleasure. So they're actually feeling that going through the birth process. That's why the Apgar score is so interesting, because the Apgar score is one of the things that gives you an idea of how the birth process affected the baby. Because if the baby comes out with a low Apgar score, then you can see that it was a stressful birth for the babies, they come out with a hierarchical score. It means it may be adapted well. So that is their first entry into the world. That's when we're going to take their first breath. And that's when they prime the entire central nervous system, and they're literally extremely vulnerable and extremely open to the world and the whole process is basically designed to get them ready to exit the birth canal that you take there for

Unknown 8:12

that there's so many good nuggets in there. And, and I was I was assuming we were gonna go to that cranial molding aspect of things too. So now when we can have babies sometimes that are born very quickly, so then you get a bit different of the cranial molding process. And then we also have C section babies which have something different too. So can you can you come on come in on those different births.

Unknown 8:37

So when you talk about the nervous system, and when we talked about and when you said the adults that they go to a chiropractor most time when it does go to chiropractic did gain a kick to have a pensioner, which may say the nerve was being compressed somewhere between the vertebral bodies on into the next webinar. Ah, that's what people think I'm not going to spend a whole time on adults. But let's just say that that's the current paradigm. Well, infants that doesn't matter. You don't get pinched nerves because you're just disease. You don't have compression on the brain and you don't even have joints. We solidify. You don't have extra sources, you know that any of them do gender stuff. So what happens in infants, the number one thing that causes damage to their nervous system is traction. When Enugu gets stretched attraction, it changes the way he can function. So let's take an example. Let's say you play guitar, right and a guitar you have tuning forks ahead of your time, and then you have the guitar attached down at the end of the fretboard. When you turn the tuning fork you change the tone of the guitar string, either can be too high or too low what the right tone. Well, nerves also function on tone. In other words, it's supposed to be a certain tension in the system and that is mitigated by the nerves and attachments to the fascia and to a thing called the German Angel system. But that aside, just think of a tube that attaches to the top of the cranium all the way down to the tailbone, and then attaches to all the nerves as they exit between the vertebrae. And so that too, gets too tight or too loose. It affects the tension on there. So during the birth process, thing you mentioned a C section. People use the C section they just cut a hole in a mom and pull the baby out. Well, what happens in the C section is that the baby misses all those contractions, so they miss the molding process. The mom is not able to push the baby out. So they're literally traction and baby's head and neck out for the most vulnerable area and the infant spine is the upper cervical where the head and the neck meet and that area gets traction and that is the base of the brainstem. All your primal issues occur while you're breathing mechanism, your life sustaining mechanism. So anytime there's tractioning in the birth, there's too much tragic it can actually damage the nerves and that's been proven by a man named outbreak who wrote a book called address mechanical change in the central nervous system that he says that Traci or the nerve actually causes immediate patho physiological damage to that nerve and impedes the way he processes information or sends information to the rest of the body. So when we're talking about the molding process, coming down the birth canal, too fast or too long, either one of those processes can be a problem. Assisted deliveries forceps that can deliver is all that puts extra traction on the nervous system. Now I'm not saying those are not necessary in some cases. I'm just saying that be aware when that happens. That is an additional stress to the child's nervous system. And can cause changes in the nervous system functions. So that's why we look especially at those particular issues when kids come in, you know, how was the growth process was it really long of good to have to use a sit you know, Assistant, forceps, vacuum, you know, C section, any of those type of issues. It's really important for us to double check, especially that upper cervical area just again once that year we get traction, it changes the way they transmit impulses and you don't want to stop a child on this planet with the compensatory pattern for the moment they exit.

Unknown 11:54

And that's exactly what I wanted to hit him to because I am a C section C section mama and then had a VBAC with my second and so having that differences I've always you know in processing those those birth stories really looked at. We can't ignore the fact that a C section birth is vastly different from a vaginal not only for mom but for baby as well. But it's also that's why we take those case histories and go through it. And then we set up that character and say, Okay, this is what we're seeing. What can we do and how can we help set that child up for the best start in life so early on in the book you talk about structure impacting function, and why is that cranial shaped?

Unknown 12:40

So to reiterate a little bit more so this system called the German Angel system, if you could.

Unknown 12:52

It's not really to protect the cranium, but it's to allow the brain to grow in the first year the brain is going to grow 101%. So, the reason we have these soft spots for these openings in the cranium, is for allowing the brain to grow. But around through those soft spots is what's called the general system so it comes up in forms of sutures. It covers the brain. It attaches very strongly right into base, then there can be upper cervical spine, then it attaches to every single nerve root and exits the frame and all between the vertebral bodies attaches all the way down from the tailbone on the coccyx, and that is that during the major system, so anywhere along that course, where there's distortion, whether it be in the tailbone or the cranium, he changes tension in the dura, and besides the dura having to maintain a specific tension to keep the various to function. It has another very, very important function. It has a space in it that allows for the movement of cerebrospinal fluid and cerebral spinal fluid is basically the lifeblood of a central nervous system. So we all know we have blood supply to our organs to the rest of our body. We also know we have a lymphatic system that have drains toxins from the rest of the body. While the CSF with the cerebral spinal fluid is the lymphatic system of the central nervous system. Not only does it bring nutrients to the system, it also protects it from damage both chemical and physical, and it also removes toxins from that system. So if you think of this too, with fluid running in it, if you have things like tightness on torque in that tube, and every six to flow, that movement, it can restrict the amount of nutrients that comes to the central nervous system. And the way toxins are a given state just like if you have lymph glands that are smaller, and they are blocked, that can get you very, very sick. We all know that. We have blood supply to an arm or hand or leg or foot or anything that's being blocked, that can cause damage. Well, the same thing can happen if this tube gets what we call tore or twisted or too tight. It impedes the flow of cerebral spinal fluid as well. And the cranium, it attaches into all the cranial bones. They're intense inside the cranium that cover the brain. One goes from the front to the back and one goes from the side to the side. Those are the two main camps. There's also a smaller tab in the front. And so these kids if you think of your cat to be to have a kid, you have a cheerful middle, you call one side of that 10 too tight, we tend to start to lean towards one side, and then you think of the pole in the middle as the spinal cord or the tension on there. And you can see as you pull them home, it tells one side to the other and it's more tense on the other side you can as we said too much or too little attention on a nerve on that tissue to cause that nerve to not fire to example potential. So the structure that we look at things like Jake lad, just definitely brachiocephalic your scapula. Definitely. All those distortions in the cranium. They're not only aesthetically involved, but they also affect the function of the underlying issues. It's no different if you look at somebody walking down the street with a crooked spine, right? Sometimes you see somebody really crooked spine or someone and hold the person very much that doba and you can just imagine how much pain and discomfort they're in. Well that distortion the spine affects not only the muscles and joint that affects the nerves. The same thing happens with the cranium, there's a certain leeway for asset leeway weren't sort of distortion patterns happen. They change both the tension in that girl system and they change the movement of cerebral spinal cord. Well,

Unknown 16:08

there you go. There you have it. That's we go now. I know so much good stuff. Now I forgot to mention because

Unknown 16:16

I like what that doula had said to your interview because I remember in school we talked about like the first subluxation that first nervous system irritation really coming from the birthing process, but now I feel like there's a little bit of a shift in that pediatric chiropractic world is saying, Well, what about in utero? What is going on there? So I guess to looking at yet, like comment on that a little bit.

Unknown 16:40

Well, I mean, that's been known for years. Yeah, I mean, even you know, Dr. Genial, who was one of the the head of the ICP and passed away several years ago. always talked about the birth process, always talked about the EU, a Euro process and even when we were having kids in the 80s, my kids both born in the 80s there was cliffs for the Institute to achieving the human potential in Philadelphia, that we used to go to take courses and they talked about how important it was for the child. To be safe and comfortable in Euro net, the things you did externally affected them, whether it be the type of music you played, the amount of stress, you're under the type of food you ate, so that's all setting up that nervous system. We've known that for years and I think was two or three years ago. Give me a call before he passed away. He was like, Did you believe this and some article came out American from medical journals say hey, you know, while the child's in utero, what you do affects the child and how they develop there was like, really? No, no kidding. I mean, so so right. So we know that, you know, the effects. I mean, and again, we don't want to put too much burden on the mom or the dad. We still have stresses, even when we're pregnant or not pregnant women children, but we just have to understand that the things we think doing, say affect the child because they're basic like a blank computer. And as they start to develop their nervous system as the brain and central nervous system develops in the first even two years of life. There's just a blank computer taking in information. It's like going to a store and buying a brand new computer, taking it home and loading down the software. That's basically what's happening in the first few years of life as you're putting into software to your child. And that is happening in utero too. So you put it in the software and just be aware of that, you know, and sometimes as little glitches and stuff that you're talking about in certain software, that's setting the learning curve is harder, but all the time that's what's happening those first two years it developing a nervous system that's growing so fast. Matter of fact, the base of the brainstem, which is called the cerebellum. That area grows too much in 40% in the first year of life, so think of that as your mainframe computer that you're putting information in. And that's what's happening in utero. And those first few years of life lay down the foundation that taking in massive amounts of information, creating connections creating foundation, so that's really what's happening and that's why we find Pediatric Care Paramedic is so important.

Unknown 19:09

Last year, I talked to about those first two years of life and brain development and touching on to that a lot of this is it's easy as that parent to be like, Oh my gosh, my thoughts everything is impacting my baby. This is stressing me out. I want to set up everything well and do a good job and so it's kind of like no, we're talking about these things to bring that awareness that these things do matter. But, you know, you're just trying to like mitigate some of that stress there too.

Unknown 19:40

Right. Well, well, well, the bottom one is that stress is a good thing, too. Like we have to have stressors that's how we develop strength. That's how we develop our nervous system. So you know, again, you write is really hard. I know as chiropractors I know I see a lot of chiropractors Beach, a lot of chiropractors. And, you know, sometimes I'll see the chiropractic mom, when they come in at the birth didn't go the way they kind of had it planned. They feel very guilty about it. And the first thing I tell them is Wait, it's not just you during the birth process. There are at least two people there, right. So it's part of what their lesson is to learn. But again, stress is a you're not going to keep your child who's stressed for the rest of their life, you're not going to forget them. So the difference between awareness and planning is huge. So having an awareness that you're you're impacting a child, right? Friend of mine, who's have a conversation with his child, his older child now in his 30s a child and they were they were talking about this some of their childhood stuff. And he basically said to me, he said, There is no parent that I know that wakes up in the morning and says Look, today I'm gonna screw up my child. This is the day I'm gonna mess them up. Now we have bad days. We have good days. That's how we have to adapt. It's not like life is you know, all roses and unicorns. So it's not necessarily a bad day. It's just again about the awareness. You know, you have to fight with your spouse. Well, you have a fight with somebody when you get to a certain point you realize that there's no reason that you know to continue that fight that you are judging changing that is all part of the identification to life. So yeah, I really want to be careful I think it's a great point channeling and said that it's not about feeling guilty of something didn't go the way you want to go. I was a C section baby. Not you know, I was born a C section. So you know, as I learned more about it, I thought about certain things that probably happened to me my childhood, but I know that my parents were like, oh, you know what, let's, let's have a C section. Let's make this really difficult birth to this child. None of that is the case. The case is that once we know that certain levels of stress, we just want to help our children like we do in life to be able to adapt to those stresses. We don't want to handicap them so that they can't deal with stress either. So it's not, you know, again, be guilty about it. Feeling like you've done something wrong. There's there's always a reason for stuff to happen again, you're not it's not just your job, or you're not the only part of that process. So, again, guilt doesn't help anybody. Angst doesn't help anybody. It's awareness that helps people and being able to accept whatever happens and to move through that and to help your child move through that.

Unknown 22:08

Exactly. Now, and I think that that's why I wanted to reiterate things I love that you said that and like awareness of that situation and awareness if there's options and things out there like you know, pediatric chiropractic care, to help with that adaptability, right. So let's touch on milestones and reflexes. So, like, why are milestones important? What are the reflexes? Let's go down that rabbit hole.

Unknown 22:33

Alright, so let's start with primal reflexes. Primary reflexes are simple. They are fight or flight responses. You can check your Selenium, basically your prefrontal cortex so your brain can make rational decisions. So things like we call the Moro reflex, which is a startle reflex or the blink reflex, or the rooting reflex. Okay, really reflexes a reflex that allows you to be able to nurse so all these reflexes are designed to protect you. And then when you start to develop my age to all the reflexes are pretty much gone and by age two, the child is able to have 18 months on trying to able to delineate what's good and bad for them to certain degrees, obviously not making rational decisions, but they can do windy situations and they get used to certain situations that have enough neural pathways to be able to somewhat consciously adapt and they no longer need those reflexes. So if the reflex is scared what we call retain primal reflexes as you get older. What that means is you stay in a fight or flight state, that your body or your brain basically your prefrontal cortex hasn't been able to basically teach the rest of your brain what's safe and what's not. So, one of the most common reflexes that stay around is what they call the more we sponsor, the startle reflex. So these infected kids who are very hypersensitive or even active, and any noises or sounds or touch or taste that things can irritate their nervous system, because they still have that internal startle reflex. Okay, it's a sensitivity let's and so that goes away. You're going to stay in a fight or flight state. So the idea is the primal reflexes they arrive and disappear at specific age groups. And as I said a minute ago, by age two, all the primal reflexes are pretty much gone and integrated. If they're not, then that can create neurological problems later on. Because again, you're dealing in a primal state, which should be basically an upper level, the brain is divided into different levels you have, you know, you have the forebrain on the primal state, you have the midbrain and you have the frontal cortex. So it's like we have the primal state that area called the cerebellum, which deals with your vital functions. Fight or flight responses, breathing mechanism, all the vital functions, then you move up to the midbrain, which starts to deal with your emotional responses to life. And then finally, you go to the forebrain, which is making your conscious choices and that develops as you get older and older and older. So the primal reflex is supposed to disappear, which is by around age three, your forebrain a frequent sigh of relief of the cortex is actually starting to take more control and put more input into the rest of your brain. So that's kind of the short version of how they work. But milestones are another thing that extremely important and they are pre programmed into your nervous system. So the milestones are what are called pre programmed for receptive feedback loops, which is basically they tell your body at certain points in time, how you can start to develop so that eventually you can become an adult that is able to walk, talk and move so that the milestone start with you being able to as I said about the other dual the dual life I think is interesting, being able to turn the head down in the uterus, but the actual when the baby comes out, the first milestone is being able to lift your head. If you can't lift your head up, then you can't lie your stomach. You can't do tummy time and then you can't reach the second milestone which is being able to turn over and then once you can even flip from front to back and back to front. The next milestone is being able to sit up and then once you can sit up you start to be able to create balance that you have you stimulate different reflex areas in your brain and each milestone develops a different amount of neurological input and develops a great veteran data that the next milestone, which are all talking about the CDC right now, maybe we'll get to that if we need to, but the next milestone is creeping and crawling. And that's extremely important because that starts to integrate your right and left brain. So the creepy crawly about creating what are called cross patterning allows you to develop neurological integrity in your brain and actually develop a right hand initial left handedness or hemispheric balance. Integrating information is extremely important milestone and for good to get it wrong and go to the next one which is standing and then walking in kind of a balanced pose in a walk up with your legs spread out your hands in a balanced pose to finally across patterning walking. And these milestones, like I said, are free programs. So if we want to start to take and change these milestones, all of a sudden, what we're changing is is generations and generations and generations of pre program, neurological developmental milestones. It would be like if you were a baby in the wild or if you were an animal in the wild, right and certain animals when they're born, they can walk within the first couple hours. If they can't do that, they will die because they will have to be left outside of the urn or the marbles only stay protected and they will be dead open to printers. So these milestones are extremely important. To develop your life skills and your ability to function in life. So any change that we're seeing in these milestones is not a positive, it's a negative. I was talking to a friend and I said to him, I said, you know, the CDC came out and basically lowered the milestones. That's the short version. They lowered the milestones and they took out grieving and calling as a milestone I said, Well, you know, if you're watching the Olympics in every year, they took the world records and made them slower and made people jump less high. And they made everything goals, you know, not as fast. They know every year we did here you're at the ability athletic ability would we keep watching the Olympics and be like, Oh, you don't need to run to them. You can second 100 Now you can run 12 seconds. And you know, the whole idea of humans a human potential is to be able to increase our potential and to at the very least in various ways, maintain the same baseline that we've had for generations and generations. Otherwise our our neurological systems generate functional potentials decrease,

Unknown 28:15

you know, and I still focus on the importance of crawling in the office, because it is such a major milestone and you know, I even have adults in the office where, you know, we're looking at functions and it's, we you know, balances off and everything. It's like okay, let's go back to some of these foundations. And crawling is one of those foundations and I know we've learned it in school and everything so you know, I want to connect how the birth process cranial shape and like milestones and reflexes are connected as far as what messes up, like what causes us to have retained reflexes or to not hit those milestones on time.

Unknown 28:55

And well, again, in our world as chiropractors, it's neurological dysfunction, it's compensatory patterns. So there were studies that it's on at the barrow. Institute Neurological Institute and this is what they determine if there is damage to basically the base of the brainstem. And that area where the cerebrum the cerebellum is, the brainstem is where all these reflexes are dedicated where the the baseline of input is taken into the brain, that if this area is damaged, irritated, that the child will then develop a certain pattern. And what will happen is they'll develop certain compensatory patterns and as they get older, and the nervous system needs to use more of its nervous system to function better to be more optimally functioning to be more connected, these circles will tend to increase the job that you have a diagnosis. So it's very interesting to see that most kids, when they get diagnosed would seek to be on the autism spectrum is somewhere around three to four years of age. And if you ask the parent, Hey, when did you notice something there's all they'll say, Oh, I noticed something that don't match

Unknown 0:00

So now you know before 18 months, and the point around that is that if you do we have what we call a fault tolerant individual speech, we're going to try and survive. So zero damage to that low area, the brainstem or interference, the transmission of impulses from the brain to the spinal cord and from the spinal cord back to the brain, that child is going to compensate for that. And so you'll see that over time the child will make compensations. compensations. Eventually they'll get to the age where these compensations no longer hold up and they'll break down. Let's say a perfect example. That is a thing called selective mutism. So selective mutism is an issue where a child can't speak has the ability, when in situations especially when there's more than one person that they shut down, they don't speak. And so fluc immunity is something that's developed but you don't notice it in infants. When the child becomes let's say, three, four, or five or six, and they're put into a crowd or into a school, they start to shut down. And well, the whole idea behind that is that is all time while they were on a one on one relationship with their parents. The environment was very safe. They didn't have to get very well there wasn't a lot of stress, where they can function in necessary state. But when they got into a situation with a how to use more than nervous system, there was much more input out a process for input. They couldn't do it, so they shut down. So that's one of the types of examples and happens with a lot of different neurological developmental issues. As you get to a certain point in life. If the brain is already compensated, it breaks down. It's kind of like thinking if you're running a marathon to get on the train for it. Let's say you're running, and you can run it. You know, you've been running 10 days for years and years and years. And a friend says, Hey, let's run a marathon and he goes, Sure, let's do it. When is it two weeks? Go look, I'll do it. Somewhere around 80 to 20 miles. If you're only training for 10 K's somewhere between at infinity miles, just this is going to break down. It's not going to have the bandwidth, it's not going to have the reserves to do it. And you'll you'll break down and that's the same you'll have the same nervous systems that bring up neurological synapses, which are the two together. The nerves have been formed in the first few years of life if they have too many adaptive patterns at a certain point to try to break down and that's when we give them a diagnosis or symptoms. But also as chiropractors know that what we're looking for is maintaining that function potential through those three years of life to that that symptom doesn't show up when they're three, four or five. There's one there was a study done two studies, one was 2013 to 2015. And what they did is they studied the level of cerebral spinal fluid for kids brains, they used MRIs. And as I said, cerebral spinal fluid is kind of the lifeblood of the central nervous system. And they found that if they found too much spinal fluid in these kids grades and their cranium up by six, at the most 12 months of age, there was a 70% increase chance that they would develop autism by the age of two or three. And this was a study that was published again with too much cerebral spinal fluid in the brain. By age six months through the most 12 months. If that system isn't working right, then there's a 70% increase in chance that that child will be autistic or have some new developmental issues by the time they're aged. So there's no symptoms those first six months a year, they develop later on because the child has already been handicapped by having basically an imbalance in the middle the ability of the cerebral spinal fluid to flow directly from the cranium, to the spine to be dumped out of the system.

Unknown 3:29

And that's directly related to why we're looking at meaning straight structure that can tax function. So yeah, that's, I mean, that's it. And you know, I've had kids in the office to where we're not writing, you know, on time as for school age things, and so, they do have retained, you know, calmer reflexes and I have some kids with the oral fixation you know, sucking those type of things. So all those little things. It's all connected. We'll talk about actually minute that. Now, you mentioned, I want to just touch a little bit on like parts of the nervous system because you did mention those primitive those primal reflexes are really that fight or flight. So just kind of briefly giving us an overview, an outline of like those parts of the nervous system.

Unknown 4:13

Four reflexes, I'm not sure you're talking about so private reflexes based in the brain, and they're basically mostly negated by when a reflex is a non thinking process. So in other words, when you go to a doctor and they hit you in a kilt and they hit your knee and your leg flares up, or they hit your elbow was up there because of spinal cord reflexes. They come from the from the extremity into the spine and right back so there's no thinking and walk to the brain and down the same thing and final reflexes, they don't get processed. So anytime you have a reflex, it is basically a non processed or a non cognitive action. And so it doesn't use the poor brain or the front of the brain. It's not like if you're, you know, when someone hits you need or they Oh, I should, I should kick my leg out. Well, like you talked about the palm of grasp reflex when you put your finger in a little baby's palm and they grasp but they don't think oh, I want to hold on to this. Well, when you stroke, the babies cheat, and they turn their head to nurse again, that's a really weird, like, it's a non thinking process. So it's either mitigated through cranial nerves, or specifically spinal nerves and it doesn't go up all the way through the brain into the prefrontal cortex. It's reflex from whatever areas been shown that particular reflex, and that's why they're so important is because again, they're teaching them they're basically not using their prefrontal cortex. They're visually stimulating lower brain centers so that when the prefrontal cortex kicks in, you have a well developed lower brain center. You know, and we know if you're losing a reflex in your leg or your arm or your hand, that that shows as a sign of nerve damage. Well, if you don't have one of your primary reflexes, it's also a sign of nerve damage. It's a simple version of

Unknown 5:50

it. Yeah, yeah. Now, you mentioned some in the book, you mentioned some specific conditions. So there's plagiocephaly, torticollis, and tundra i. So I didn't know if you wanted to briefly comment on why those are the three main ones that you put

Unknown 6:09

in here, right. I do that because it's so common. They were in the 90s. The American Pediatric Association started really kind of being afraid of SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome. And they were telling parents not to let babies lie on their stomach. And so they started this whole process of you know, I'm doing air quality or educating people to put their babies on their back. And so what happened is now from in the 2000s when that occurred, and what they came out with a study that said that 47% of children have cranial distortions, so crazy of this 47% That's huge, that children have basically destroyed the cranium. What we see in our offices, I'm going to practice that for two years, and every several years five to seven years, there's a new syndrome that comes up that people find that chiropractic can help them like when I first started practicing, Everybody brought their kids in for ear infections. You know, then when I started doing it switched to like asthma breathing issues that it went to call it and then it went to neurodevelopmental disorders, and now its tongue tie and pledge assembly. So I just felt like they were the more common issues that we see right now I wanted to and I think it's a really good point here is to not say that we treat the specific symptoms. It's just that this is what people find us for. What we do do is try and get the nervous system to work as best as possible, regardless of child's symptoms, but things like Flagyl is definitely a tongue tie a very visually obvious. So if you bring a baby that has a distorted head, and we start making adjustments and the head shape changes, parents go wow, look at that. I had a little kid brought in a couple of weeks ago that he had a 15 millimeter difference from one side of his head to the other, which is huge. And within two within two weeks, we measured it was down to 10. Santa was significantly changed and you could see the changes on the tongue ties another big thing that pretty much it looks like every kid that's born or every every to every guest sometimes right? All the time. Yeah. Yeah, but there are different types of Chun Chi, and a lot of the things so there's posterior middle, middle and get your tongue tied. The one that always has to get treated or or revised is anterior tongue tie, because the child can't get their tongue out of the mouth and when they stick it out, the tongue bends over crease, that little handshake that's a problem. But the other types of tongue tie when the other types of where the cranium attachment HSP variances, and we don't have time to go into this but we teach classes in how to determine which tongue ties needs revised. And also, having checked the function at its own pace, is impeding function. Because there is a thing that's very important about the tongue is that the pressure of the tongue on the palate also helps shape the cranium. So that's sucking the ability to chop to suck but of course, it's on up against their hard palate actually helped shape the cranium. So the only reason I covered those in the book, Tao is because we wrote it now and those are the things we often see in our practices a lot more of it's also things that parents can see like if a child can nurse and they bring them to the chiropractor, and we start to adjust the child home some of the child's nursing, that's a huge change that they can easily see. And it changes the whole dynamics in the family. So but you know, we still see kids, you know, well, kids who come in after the birth just to get checked on I see kids. The other thing that was very prevalent that you see all the time is digestive issues, colic reflux, that's another big thing that that people are vector Davis to chiropractors for. And so I just kind of pointed those things out in the book just so parents can get an understanding and even a visual ideology of when we make adjustments, how much things actually change.

Unknown 9:54

Yeah, and those I mean, those are super super what we see a lot coming into the office, you know, and but then touching on again, that aspect of common versus normal just because we're seeing a lot doesn't mean I guess that it is normal, right? So and I like that. Find it well and I there's there's one thing I want I want to touch on it with the tongue tie in and then it too because there's something else you say in the book because I'm seeing a lot of with anti digestive issues, but um, you know, I liked that you touch on the fact that we're really looking at nervous system function so two kids can have the same birth you know, super fast labor not get the same cranial molding, but yet they can have one can have plagiocephaly one can have, like it can be totally different manifestations of that nervous system mutation. So I think that's

Unknown 10:43

like, if anybody has more than one child that you know, that genetic pool is very random, and my two daughters have completely opposite of each other. Right, exactly. So that's just you know, so you know, the symptom that one can ask them nothing, no reflection of the synthetic I think it adds, even if they can't even twins, and then I've had twins come out with completely different presentations. You know, totally different presentation. I remember one time we have this really they put their pitch Wednesday, and one case had because of the way they were in utero and they came out literally looked almost like a triangle. You know, that was the first thing that they did and they said, you know, this is a human want to bring in and they originally we're not going to have a chapter seven give us and well no, just because this kid's head doesn't look like that. We still need to check them to make sure that everything was okay directly into the wild and that people understand that because well my work It looks funny VIP kid looks what we consider normal but looking normal and being normal. It was a whole different thing. But I want to back up on that controversial because actually that scares me the most. And what scares me the most is when the American Pediatric Association says things like 47% of kids are premium distortion with peace and love get out about that. They said that only 10% of them need to be treated. So that's insane. You know, that would be saying that, you know 70% of children have scoliosis, but only 10% of them need to be treated. So because a lot of people are having it of course it's prevalent in our society now. What we tend to do is accepted as opposed to find out why. So let's take autism because that's always been a big one, right? So the autism rate depending on where you read is somewhere between one and 41 to 38 to one and 42. So every one child out of every let's say 42 have somewhere on the autism spectrum. When I was in chiropractic school, that number was 125 punches. Okay, so you got to think now we're starting to accept this as Oh, okay, well, now you're on the spectrum and it's becoming common now that you know, these kids are on the spectrum with the spectrum kits. And the problem I have with that is instead of trying to find out why this is happening, or how to stop this from happening, we're just accepting it and making a number of where you know what quantifying it as Oh, great, or this is the number now, you know, Health and Human Services two years ago came out and said that 54% of our children have chronic illnesses. And we're just like, oh, so well, they have children are chronically ill, that makes sense. And so we start to accept things that are nurturers. This is not you know, it's not a voting democracy saying oh, 51% of the kids are sick. So now we'll get a vote. Every kid should be sick. You know, it's, it's not a democracy around that. It's numbers that are scary and what we need to be looking at this, why this is happening, and how to stop it from happening, except instead of just quantifying it and saying, Oh, well, this is the number and being okay with that.

Unknown 13:38

All right, or, you know, changing parameters around it and saying like, Okay, well what's

Unknown 13:41

even worse, I just assumed it. Yeah, you know what the CDC you know, why they did it? One of the reasons if you read on that website then one of the reasons it didn't say simply because they found that only 50% of the kids were reaching these milestones. So they changed it. So now 75% of the kids are married to milestones, like what that's like going to school in Santa Fe and the passing grade is 65 and you find out that, you know, 70% of your or 50% of your kids are failing. So you think well, now the passing grade is 55. And now you have 75 or 70 Kids passing and that means you're a better teacher than me. You know,

Unknown 14:16

that's insane. That's insane.

Unknown 14:20

I know. I know. And I feel you on that too. So that's why I'm I'm that's why I love that the the name of the book too common versus normal, because that is what a lot of pediatric chiropractors are seeing in office and parents are trying to deal with it too. Because you know, you got parents coming in, and they're not. They're smart. They're like, Well, wait a minute, just, you know, a lot of and what I wanted to touch on it I have so many babies coming in at tongue ties, and they haven't had a bowel movement in nine days. Like that's that goes together and it's like they know that this is their like, but that's not normal. The pediatrician said, this can be common, so that is just you know, that's a little rant as

Unknown 15:01

well my record for people babies bringing being brought in for constipation was 21 days. pediatrician said it was okay 21 days kid hadn't had a bowel movement. So yeah, I mean, nothing happens in isolation in our system. There is nothing that goes on in our system within our nervous system, our immune system our day yet that the rest of the body doesn't know about, right. I mean, you stub your toe, your whole body knows about it. So there's nothing like you said the whole idea of tongue tie and digestive issues. They're totally interrelated for a number of reasons, as part of its fascial system. Part of his inability to nurse efficiently auditing that he shot at sucking Arabic, they're not making a good seal of the contract. I mean, there's a whole plethora of reasons why that affects also the digestive system. And you're right, though there are certain things that become common, interrelated instances but honestly, nothing happens in isolation. So there are a whole system is under stress. I think what what we have to look at is how this dysfunction or how much stress the dysfunction creates this, like, you know, you sprained your ankle, and you have to live for a while and you create compensations. And if you're a healthy person, you know, you create those compensations rehabilitated and you get well, but the problem is that during that compensatory time, you're also making compensatory changes. If you have a weakness somewhere else, let's say you, you spray your right ankle and you have a sort of bad left hip or they've left hip and now you have to put more weight on that left hip then that starts to aggravate that. And when I'm talking about the child's nervous system, so they compensate, they can't nurse well, and it's sucking air, then it becomes a digestive issue, and then they start to get reflux, and then the reflux starts to make it uncomfortable the nurse so they get an aversion to nursing. And then of course if they don't get enough fluid from the nursing then their bowel movements get very dry and hot because they get dehydrated, they're constipated, and then when they get constipated, they can remove toxins from their body. So then the toxins start to leak out through the skin so they have eczema, and so becomes a, you know, a ball that rolls downhill one symptom following the other because the system has to keep compensating and compensated compensated.

Unknown 17:09

And I want to read a quote from the book that really like that touches on that because you say the misconception that the symptom stands alone any neurological insult that affects the neural meningeal system or the nervous system is global and the whole nervous system has to change and adapt to it. Right. And that's, I mean, that's pretty much and that's kind of going through the like, Okay, why is the birth process important? What are these milestones? How is all of that connected? I want to touch on why tummy time is important.

Unknown 17:41

Simply it's just a really important neurological development at scale. So every milestone that you hit, and every structural and physical master you hit also has a social emotional component to it. So think about this. If you're a baby, and someone puts you on your stomach and you can't lift your head up, and all you can do is look straight down. That's how you see the world better world. So the first thing that happens it's called the visual proprioceptive righting reflex. As soon as the baby gets picks their head up that reflex occurs and the visual property righting reflex lets the baby explore space and allows them to expand their horizons basically, it allows them to be able to start to move. So tummy time is important because if you don't have the child's neck is not strong enough to hold their head up or they can hold their head up. They get less input from their environment, all they're seeing is what's right literally in front of them. So the input from the environment helps develop what we call synapses, which are its relations between the nerves and the peak synaptic development. The time when you develop the most of the fastest is the first is that eight months of age. So what you're doing is when you're using the time you have to have the baby lift the head up several things are happening besides forming proper get musculature so that they can then roll over and eventually set up they're also taking in more information developing a stronger nervous system with more input and I've also triggering that visual proprioceptive righting reflex and at the same time, it is expanding their world. So their social emotional development is then starting to expand each level of like I said a minute ago, each milestone also has a social and emotional level component to it. And as a baby, you'll see that as babies get more independent, they start to want more of their you know, they start to tell you more of what they want. Specifically, not just base level, base level functions but more what they want and as they get more freedom, then they develop more social and emotional basically abilities to cope with a handle or to interact. So it's extremely important so tummy time is that first really big one. We have the baby develops those posterior neck muscles triggers the visual properties of the righting reflex kids to see more of their will and they can actually become somewhat independent in the fact that they can turn it over. And that makes a big difference. They can flip from side to side that changes how they can move and how they can start to get around. So it's an extremely important first stage of development.

Unknown 20:02

Yep, no, I love seeing and there's lots of different ways to for parents to help with tummy time. You know, just different, you know, ways to put things in their line of sight and right side of the world and left side of the world. So there's lots of things to work on. With that now. After talking about all, you know, the nervous system function and all of these issues, when you know towards the end of the book you talk about like when to seek outside help and what that looks like. So,

Unknown 20:39

I think so there's number one and I say this to moms all the time. First, trust your intuition. If you see something wrong, then you need to say something. If you think something's not right, you need to say something. And so what I mean by that is number one, that's the first way that the mom can seek help and bring them you know, bring the child into somebody for that kind of help. But what do you do to interventions in my office, what we do is when a new baby comes in or an adult, whatever it is, we do what we call progress and re exams. So they for the first exams or initiatives, and we set up a baseline that basically it's a structural functional neurological baseline, this is what your child system is functioning on this structure looks like and the child in urban system is responding. And then, after about three weeks of care, we have a progress exam. And then somewhere after six weeks of care, we do a re exam. And what we're looking for is for those baselines change. So let's say you bring a child into B, that's having coordination issue, let's say it's a two year old that's not walking well. Okay, ships all the time, is having problems interacting with his brother gets very anxious. And so we set up a baseline for that child. And let's say somewhere about eight weeks into care the baselines have changed, the neurological baselines have changed. Functionally, neurologically the child seems better, but they're still having problems interacting with say with their environment, or they're still having some coordination issues. So at that point, you may say look, we need to do some type of rehabilitation, and that will be the point where I will refer the child out for some OT or PT to help stimulate or create new pathways. Once we've cleared the pathways and documented the average function to safely with something like tongue tied. If a child comes into me with let's say, a middle to posterior tongue tie. I'm not going to send him a clear vision right away. I'm going to start to started adjusting protocol. And let's say we're raising a child came to this because they're not nursing well, and they're getting colicky and they get crampy. At night, they wake up like, you know, five or six times a night. So while I'm making my adjustments, I'm also monitoring the symptoms of the child but I'm also more monitoring to how the baseline changes. And let's say up to six weeks, I say to the mom says, you know, Johnny's doing much better he's sleeping really well, like at night than to be as colicky, but he's still really not nursing well, and it still seems to be a problem. And it's so challenging. My nipples are really sore. So if I take all that information economy say well you know what, this may be the time that we should probably do the revision because all those other neurological parameters are changing. A lot of the functional parameters are changing, but this is a very structural issue, that's not changing and you're still having some symptoms resolving that are not resolving. So let's take the next step. So again, for chiropractors, I think it's important that we have a system that can track baseline changes and the work that we're doing, which is what we're responsible for, is maintaining the function of the nervous system that's changing that's changing but the child's reactivity or symptoms are not changing. That may be a time we may need someone else to help basically reprogram the nervous system, that you've cleared the pathway. And it's important though, that the pathways cleared and when I've always seen whether someone's doing speech therapy or OT or PT, whatever it is, the first thing that the other therapists will say if the child is under chiropractic care, let's say they started this ot beforehand. As I say, I don't know what you're doing now. But in the last couple of weeks, I have seen this child make leaps and bounds of they have not made over the last couple of months. And that's because we've cleared up the nervous system and allowed it to then be able to accept those alternative or those other other types of care programs. So it can go both ways. Sometimes we'll get referrals from PT and OTs because the child's not progressing correctly. And on the other hand, if we hit a place where the child's nervous system seems to be as best as we could get it, then they may need external input, whether it be an invasive repeat, seizure like a tongue tie revision, or just other types of OT health or repatterning. And how to deal with the nervous system now that we've cleared it up and to create better pathways.

Unknown 24:44

And I think it's important to really reiterate to that you're talking about it's that team effort, you know, and sometimes it's not just the the one thing we see it both ways, like you mentioned, you know, pte referral to us and saying like, Oh gosh, leaps and bounds things really happened and then knowing when to say, Okay, we do need to get some extra work in here, but that's that dialogue with the parents and I think that that's one thing that's really cool with chiropractic cares. I feel like that dialogue is it's really like those goals settings and that, you know, what, what are we seeing, what do we want to see and it's that team effort to with the care provider,

Unknown 25:18

I think most chiropractors are the ones I know, I know, pediatric chiropractors are open to having conversation with the parents and I'm really at a place where they trust what the parent has to say you know, I'm not saying all pediatricians are all medical doctors like that, but it tends to be a more of a you know, wearing child situation where the doctor wants to be in charge and telling the parent what the issue is, but you know, if someone tells me that my child you know, it's okay to my child is approved every 14 days. My first thought is you try not going to the bathroom quickie case. It's only I used to feel that that's how my brain works. So yeah,

Unknown 25:53

so joke, right, so I think we have it right. No.

Unknown 25:59

Worries. Yeah, so So yeah, so it's about you know, it's about it's about having objective findings, that you can do that. It's interesting because I just had a patient who I just did a regem of her little baby and the baby had a whole bunch of symptoms, and we need to nursing issues difficult version eczema, constipation, and a whole plethora of issues. And I just had a conversation with a mother after the exam, and I was telling her how the baby's baseline size really changed and it was asking about the baby's symptoms. And she was telling me the ones that went away and the ones that you know, were were still prevalent, and I was just talking I said, Look you babies baselines have changed and the nervous system is changing. I actually reduced the kids visit frequency even though the symptoms were still some of the symptoms. Were still there because my baseline said that his nervous system was yelling, and I said to him, Look, this is what I'm seeing. This is what the child had when they first came in. You can see how all these parameters are changing. I said let's just trust that the body you know will start to heal and that the symptoms will start to change even though they you know, some of them have and I'm still going to reduce your visit your child's visit frequency to once a week, because that's how the pattern is showing me that's happening and the mom was like, Okay, let's just do it. And and I just thought that that was a way that they understood better than that just treating the child's symptoms, but what I'm doing is treating their nervous system which are adjusting them to better the function of the nervous system, and that we need to trust in the ability of the body also to make those changes. Once that system is clear now

Unknown 27:37

I know exactly give the body that little that time to heal. You know.

Unknown 27:42

Not everybody's gonna heal in the same chapter.

Unknown 27:44

No, definitely not. Um, so I want you to touch just a little bit on what does pediatric cranial apathy and cranial justments What does it look like? Because I know a lot of times you've had parents that ask that, you know, so

Unknown 27:59

what is the what I always do like tracks, right? So we're not doing visual here. So let's get on with what I do with a parent, especially if they've not been on here before is I actually show them on their head and what did it feel like? So we use about four to six ounces of pressure in the pediatric spine, or cranium, I should say a lot of the work we do is from the palate, we use the palate as a lever. So we use we'll put a glove on or a finger cut on and when we put our finger in the child's mouth or a certain reflex points where they're strong attachments to the dura and where there are sutures that sometimes get restricted and just by the child sucking on our finger that pressure and aren't putting on pressure on those certain points or the palette. We can help release the pressure. You're not moving something from point A to point B we're doing really two things we make the cranial adjustment with changing journal tension, and the juror is actually making the change or were opening up with changing the flow of cerebrospinal fluid so that the increased pressure in certain areas can actually make the cranium change. So again, you think of moving like a spinal bone, we think moving from point A to point B. That's not happening in the cranium, we're really just trying to find the points that change the tension in the dura so that the journal will help shift the cranium or move cerebral spinal fluid to the point so that the internal precious real spine for the gives the cranium will help move the cranial bones so it's a very light touch. The baby may cry only because we have to hold them in a specific position while we're doing it. But once we stop, you'll see that the baby doesn't cry. It is not painful at all. And like I said it's probably four ounces of pressure at most. We'll do the internal corrections. And the only other thing that happens externally is you got to remember what will you make an adjustment, you're actually trying to facilitate a corrective measure that the body's already doing. So what I like to tell parents is like, you know, you have a car that stuck in the mud and you're trying to rock it back and forth and you can't get out of the mud and somebody gets behind your car and gives it a push and all of a sudden there's enough track if you get out of the mud. Now you know that

Unknown 0:00

The person behind you could not put your car in a normal position, you know, from a standing position to movement position, but it was just enough for us to help facilitate what the body or the car was already trying to do. And that's what we do when we make an adjustment. We're trying to facilitate the corrective process that the body's already trying to make. So we just have to put in a very gentle force in the correct direction to help the body facilitate that correction.

Unknown 0:27

Yes, I know I'm glad you you use those analogies and stuff too because I do want parents to understand it is different than adult adjustments, so I'm sure you do. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Today, I want you to talk a little bit about where people can find you some of the things that you offer because I know you've got the peak potential program, and then your chiropractic office. So yeah, so just tell us a little bit about how we can get in touch with you.

Unknown 0:56

Alright, so to get in touch with our office, we're in Wellesley, Massachusetts, you can get our website as well as EWB L L. E. S. Ley, Cairo. CHR o.com. Let me get us there. The Gmail address so the email address that is Wellesley Cairo Gmail, so that's easy, require practice. As Shelley just said, we have the peak potential Institute. And if you go to Pete potential program.com you'll have you'll see all our courses, both our hands on and our online courses, plus all the books that we have and you can get them to contact us whether you're a chiropractor or professional contact is Dr. Dr. Martin rosen@gmail.com. And that is also a third website, which is our professional website, and that is Dr. Mark rosen.com. And those are ways that either professionals will leap lay people can contact us, and we'll be happy to you know, answer questions and do anything you want to any issues you may have that we can help you with that, of course, we are always still teaching we're unloading courses, pretty much every couple of months. We have I think three going right now. From the peak potential Institute. So yeah, so Shannon, this was awesome. I so appreciate you having me on. And you know, having this conversation I think is extremely important, valuable conversation with people. And again, I appreciate what you do. I know it's, everybody thinks everything that real says easy. I know a lot of work. To make, maintain consistency of doing these podcasts and run a practice and be a mom. So

Unknown 2:28

I Yeah, it is it is a lot of work. But this is so much fun. And I love having you on so that people can hear it in your voice in your words with all of the expertise that you have and the knowledge and the skills and so again, thank you so much for having for being on the show today. Well thank you

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