Ep 146: How Pregnancy and Birth Can Impact Infant Development

Birth not only impacts mom, but baby as well.  In this episode, Doula Rachael and Dr. Shannon chat about specific questions she asks during her pediatric chiropractic exams and why those questions are important.  These questions are related to baby position in the womb as well as the entire birth process because the physical aspects of birth (mode of delivery, fast labor, slow labor, baby position) can relate to how baby is processing living outside of the womb (torticollis, constipation, colic, nursing issues)  Birth doesn’t have to be a traumatic event for mom and baby to deal with certain stressors and then for the nervous system to be impacted from those stressors.  But pediatric chiropractic care is a gentle way to help restore optimal nervous system function post-birth for mom and baby.

Your baby doesn’t have to have any “issues” either to benefit from having their nervous system assessed by a pediatric chiropractor!

Resources mentioned:
Episode 95: how birth process impacts infant feeding 
Episode 69: benefits of pediatric chiropractic care
Episode 57: pediatric chiropractic care and cranial adjustments with Dr. Martin Rosen

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:04.447)
We've got some more music coming in today on the Align Birth Podcast. Supremes, where did our love go? Baby, baby. But we're saying baby, baby because we're talking about how pregnancy and birth can impact infant development. And so baby, we're trying to help you out. We're trying to give you information about how pregnancy and...

labor and birth can impact infant development. I love her song. Now we've only done this twice. This is so fun. Again, that was the supreme. We love the supreme. I love starting our show with music and setting the mood and the tone to talk about birth. This is going to be chiropractic care. This is prenatal. This is pediatric exam questions that I will ask in the office. And why am I asking about prenatal health history?

and birth at the pediatric chiropractic exam. Like that's, I guess that's the bulk of what we wanted to talk a little bit today about. So certain questions that I'm asking, why am I asking it? And then the big point again is that why am I asking what type of birth, birth presentation, interventions, all of those things and prenatal history? So I think that's what we're going to talk about today, Rachel.

Rachael Hutchins (01:27.694)
Keep the music coming, Dr. Shannon. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love the energy.

Dr. Shannon (01:29.347)
That's what we're talking about. It was either The Supremes or Justin Bieber, but we went with The Supremes.

Rachael Hutchins (01:35.786)
Alright, next time maybe we'll do Bieber. But I love a little bit of music, it gets the energy going. Definitely a great, great conversation today that I'm looking forward to because I think this is really helpful for expecting moms or new moms to think about how the way their baby is born and what they experience during their pregnancy and then how baby is born impacts the health of.

baby, including feeding, sleeping, digestion, like all the things. Um, and you've taught me so much and that's what we're kind of going to do today is help you kind of highlight what you do with your patients to sort of extract the information needed to help better take care of mom and baby, um, in a way that no other practitioner is doing. Um, and I think that's really important to know of like, you are looking at like the whole picture.

gathering information and then providing care that meets the need based on what they go through. And so I just connecting dots, yes.

Dr. Shannon (02:39.443)
We're connecting dots. Like we're connecting dots that you may not realize that the dots are connected between birth presentation and constipation, labor and birth and colic, labor and birth and nursing issues. Just connecting dots.

Rachael Hutchins (02:47.519)
Right?

Rachael Hutchins (02:55.846)
Yeah. And it's so layered. It's not straightforward. I feel like we are wired and raised to like see a problem and be like, or see a, an actual like probably nervous system response in a baby or a behavior and want to like fix it and think something's wrong from the outside versus like assessing what happened before and what's going on inside. And that's what I think you do so beautifully. And I think

Dr. Shannon (03:00.191)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (03:15.871)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (03:19.562)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (03:24.702)
something else I've learned from you that's so helpful for people to know is that the birth doesn't have to be quote unquote traumatic to impact baby. Like they are still going through a major event coming through the pelvis and out into the world or coming through your belly via cesarean like it is, and then how they were inside the womb, like all of that impacts how they kind of regulate into the world. And so you're going to help us kind of understand that better so that

Dr. Shannon (03:45.327)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (03:54.802)
maybe new moms can achieve care that's actually helping their babies feel so much better and thrive during this time versus suffering and wondering, you know, going to the pediatrician and then this who knows.

Dr. Shannon (04:09.643)
Or it's just, yeah, a medication or, oh, they'll grow out of it or this, you know, all those little things that I hear. And I'm like, it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be like that. Or we'll just wait and see. And, you know, all those type of things.

Rachael Hutchins (04:18.146)
Well, yeah, pediatricians are prescribing like pepsid for newborns. And I'm not like anti-pepsid, but I'm also like, could that pediatrician and could that mom explore other options to see first? And then if not, maybe try pepsid? But that's just like, it's the band-aid. That's not actually kind of getting to the root, but it might help it for a season, but I still encourage trying to get to the root.

Dr. Shannon (04:23.259)
Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (04:36.443)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (04:41.724)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (04:47.211)
There's some other things we can do. I usually don't talk, some births are yes, traumatic, but most of the time I like to say that birth is a stressful and strained full process because it doesn't have to be traumatic, but there's a lot of stress and strain that happens to mom and happens to baby as well too. I think we understand for mom what that's like as far as just the pain, the labor, we remember it, but as babies don't remember.

Rachael Hutchins (04:57.751)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (05:16.052)
Right.

Dr. Shannon (05:16.363)
Consciously remember birth, you know, so it's not like they're communicating in the best way that they can so it's I'd like to say That's stressful strainful You know process but if your birth was traumatic It doesn't mean that you and baby have to stay in that trauma response as well. So there's things that we can do for Nervous system regulation as it pertains to that

Rachael Hutchins (05:36.854)
So you, I know when someone comes to see you after their baby's born, you ask them to tell you about their birth and maybe their prenatal history when they're coming in for that pediatric chiropractic care. So can you tell me a little bit about that information, the information that you're looking for and kind of why it matters?

Dr. Shannon (05:58.639)
So this is why I love Seeing moms while they're pregnant and then they come in for their prenatal or come in for their postpartum Re-exam and then we do the newborn exam at the same time then

because I get to hear the birth story and history. I knew them prenatally and knew what we worked through. I knew what was going on. And then it's just that other layer of insight into, okay, and now how is baby presenting and what is going on here? Baby doesn't have to have a problem. There doesn't have to be an issue for baby to be checked as well. But so there's two couple...

different types of parents that come into the office. So those that have been under care, you know, during their pregnancy, and then they're coming in because they want newborn to experience all the goodness as well. And other ones that had labor, birth, and then they maybe have some sort of issue going on now and referred or for whatever reason are coming in for care. I don't know, sometimes I have, they're just coming in for wellness care because they just want to make sure that things are right, you know?

Rachael Hutchins (07:08.416)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:10.203)
But no matter what I'm asking about the in utero history. So how baby was in utero, if they were, if they were breached, if they were transverse, at any point in the pregnancy, that does give insight into things that I look for. I'm gonna be checking hips, I'm checking pelvis alignment. I'm already checking that.

but there's another layer that you'll, a different lens that I will look at it with. And that's gonna be the same thing with the pediatrician as well too. They're gonna do all of these orthopedic hip tests to make sure things are fine. There's a lot of different breech presentations as well too. So it's going into the specifics of how baby was in utero, because that can give insight into biomechanical things that are going on in the infant now.

I always want to know like how labor started. That big aspect of, and I always ask about interventions too, so this kind of goes into that, but did you go into labor on your own or did we have to artificially get it started? You know, when I'm, when I ask that and I'm thinking about it, I just, I guess I'm going to, was everybody ready for baby or were we still not ready?

And I'm looking at that from like nervous system standpoint. Did I had one mom and her, she had a seven year old and she's waiting on baby to come. And he's like, mommy, just gotta let go. Just let go of the baby. And I was like, oh, that's so easy. You know, you're seven. He's like, just let go of the baby. Why is the baby not coming out? Just let it go. But in my head, I was like, whoa, that is so deep. He does not understand how deep he's going with that. Cause I'm looking at that from a mental aspect as well too.

how mom was, were we holding on to a lot of fear, a lot of stress and that dance and that play with baby as well too. So I do wanna know how labor started. Birth presentation, so how baby was engaged in the pelvis. There's lots of different things. Well, I mean, if it's breach, if you found a provider that supported a breach birth, like all of those things.

Dr. Shannon (09:31.463)
But with the positioning, it's also too, where we occiput posterior, occiput anterior, shoulder dystocia, like all different things with the little hand coming out first, like there's lots of different things to make note of in that birth presentation. Pushing positions, I do like to know how mom gave birth, like how was baby actually born? Were you on your back? And some of this stuff, it's just...

I don't know, it's intriguing to me too to know, okay, this is how it worked out for this mom for whatever reason. I guess I'm usually asking that birth presentation or birth position if I had mom prenatally because I wanna know what were we able to achieve with care and how easily were you able to move and manage those things, you know? But it gives me a little insight too. And then granted how baby was born. So this is either.

Rachael Hutchins (10:17.376)
Hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (10:21.771)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:27.315)
vaginal, it's either cesarean, it's Interventions can be a wide range of interventions as in like starting labor internal fetal monitoring, you know, the stress levels there and Interventions as if there were forceps or vacuum needed as well, too. So I Ask about all of those things And I want to go into like why in at the end

Rachael Hutchins (10:52.862)
And so in death, do you know the pediatrician only asked the pediatrician only really cares about breach. Like the pediatrician doesn't ask all those other things. They do not and breach because we know the connection to hip dysplasia.

Dr. Shannon (10:59.931)
Mm-hmm. And this gives me clue in the hips. And that's really wide. But see, when I'm looking at this, I'm like, how was mom supported during all of this? Mm-hmm. Because if I know, well, we had, if baby was in distress, or all those other little things that I know, golly, this was probably stressful, you know? So it didn't have to be traumatic. Like sometimes I think that's, I just don't like that word.

Rachael Hutchins (11:10.638)
There's the nervous system. Yeah, yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (11:22.693)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (11:28.963)
It doesn't have to be traumatic, but like it was stressful and that stressful aspect I look at that now is how is this newborn now? Handling this new world outside of the womb I also like to know too because I want to hear mom and I want to know does mom need support So even I have a lot of moms that will come in They did not see me during prenatal care. They've had nursing issues their lactation consultant sent them to me

Rachael Hutchins (11:43.361)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (11:47.655)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (11:59.031)
I'm working with them and I talk a lot with mom and I'm finding out mom has a lot of postpartum mental health issues. I see that a lot. So when I'm adjusting baby, I'm talking to mom as well too and I'm checking in and how are things and what's really cool is when we can get baby out of that stress zone, I see mom get out of stress zone.

Rachael Hutchins (12:09.561)
Hmm. Because you start kind of peeling back the layers like as you're collecting this information yeah. mm hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (12:25.112)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (12:27.851)
So even if I'm not, even if mom isn't under care, I think it works better when I have both of that unit under care together because they feed off each other, pun intended. So at least one of them is feeding off the other. But there's that connection there as well too. So I guess that's what I wanna get at with talking about this is that it's so much bigger than like.

Rachael Hutchins (12:37.232)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.

Rachael Hutchins (12:48.452)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (12:53.354)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (12:56.035)
I'm no longer nursing with pain, you know, or those type of things with, with pediatric care. There's a bigger, there's that bigger nervous system regulation aspect to it as well too. So that's a sidebar. I don't know where I'm going.

Rachael Hutchins (13:00.014)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (13:09.806)
Absolutely. And I think too, like if the birth can go as smooth as possible and you could have achieved everything you hope to achieve, but yet still have some nervous system dysregulation that you can help identify and assess by asking these questions and kind of peeling back the layers for both mom and baby. And I think that's huge. So definitely if there was some known trauma or stress at birth, but even to me, regardless.

I think it's good because you can have things go well and still have that dysregulation and you don't really know it. It's not something we can pinpoint. And again, culturally society, like we like to be able to very like know exactly, like have this one thing that we can fix or this one identify a problem. And most may, you know, traditional medical care providers, all I'm thankful for them, but don't always look at the whole. And I think that's what you're doing here. And

Dr. Shannon (13:42.875)
It's still a lot.

Rachael Hutchins (14:07.222)
that's so incredibly valuable to new moms. And that ability to be able to even have that spidey sense go off of like, okay, I think they might need additional support here and be able to refer out is so beneficial for a new mom and a new baby.

Dr. Shannon (14:20.599)
Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz I see them and I hear them whether they you know come in for care Or not. Um

Dr. Shannon (14:34.495)
I was going to say something because you had such good things that you had said there. It'll come back to me, I suppose.

Rachael Hutchins (14:40.93)
So tell me like about the, like once baby's here, some of the things you might ask about how things are going now the baby's here, like nursing, sleeping, bowel movements. So like current stuff.

Dr. Shannon (14:51.726)
Mm-hmm.

That's there are like main ones that I always ask. I want to know nursing. I want to know is there nipple pain. I want to know. Yeah. So is there nipple pain? Do they nurse well on both sides? Are they only taking a bottle? Are they super sleepy with nursing? Are they arching and they are pissed off? I had one family. They call it. He just sharks. He's just sharking all the time when he's nursing sharking like I just I loved it like all of that with nursing.

Rachael Hutchins (15:02.39)
What do you want to know about nursing? Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (15:17.366)
Ha ha ha!

Dr. Shannon (15:23.535)
Are there bubbles? Do you hear clicking? Is there, are they dribbling a lot with it? A lot of times too, I can observe nursing in the office, which is really awesome. I am not a lactation consultant. I'm gonna, and I love working with lactation consultants because I have certain things I'm looking for. And I had Jana on the episode, on an episode, I don't know which one we did, but Jana Birdseye. And I worked so closely with her and it is,

Rachael Hutchins (15:35.074)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (15:40.656)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (15:51.087)
Amazing we worked on infants together before it's so good, but there are things I'm looking for Um, and I mean, there's a lot of nuances with nursing um What positions they like what positions they don't like and?

Rachael Hutchins (16:00.683)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (16:05.478)
I know it's so crazy how often I hear and it's assumed as normal of like baby likes this side but not this side and I'm like that's a telltale sign that they probably have some tension on one side and chiropractic care can definitely help with that.

Dr. Shannon (16:13.673)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm exactly um I think that's like the bulk of Of nursing a lot of times moms will be like they'll just if i'm not Asking a specific question it will come out in the answer of another question. I mean my job Is so much in the questions that I ask And when I just shut up and listen and hear what they're saying That is like That gives me so many clues

Rachael Hutchins (16:34.559)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (16:40.204)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Like truly listening versus just trying to gather information.

Dr. Shannon (16:49.543)
Mm-hmm. Because I'm like, okay, this is giving me clues into other things. Sleep. I... Or even too, like if they take a pass or if they don't, what happens there? Is there reflux? Do they burp? Do they not? Like what ticks them off? You know, like when are they getting us up outside of, well, they're hungry and they have a wet diaper. Like there's certain things where, yeah, I expect them to be upset because this is how they're communicating, but is it outside, you know?

Rachael Hutchins (17:09.514)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (17:16.159)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (17:19.095)
ranges of normal there. Sleep, I don't expect newborns to sleep for great lengths of time, you know, I expect there to be lots of nursing. So it's not more, it's just an aspect of where are they at in that sleep schedule? Are they in within those degrees of normal? Are they sleeping too long, sleeping too less, you know, because that gives me insight into how their nervous system is functioning though too.

Rachael Hutchins (17:27.287)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (17:36.035)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (17:39.79)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (17:43.106)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (17:44.715)
Tummy time, I know we're talking like there's different levels of this from newborn into not newborn care, but spending time on belly.

Rachael Hutchins (17:49.672)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (17:57.543)
while they're laying on mom, like that's what I usually say first, but I wanna know, do they do that well? Do they rest both cheeks? A lot of parents think tummy time has to be, they're on their belly and they're lifting up and they're engaged the whole time. That is not, that doesn't have to be. At the very beginning, I actually want them to just rest a bit. I don't want them to turn their head to both sides because I want them to rest both cheeks evenly. Bow movements.

Rachael Hutchins (18:15.694)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (18:20.715)
There's a lot of times when they're like, well, the pediatrician says, it's normal for breastfed babies to not have bowel movements for several days. And I hem and haw on that as far as how I really feel because if I don't have a bowel movement for a few days, I don't know how that feels because I don't go that way because that sounds miserable. But...

Rachael Hutchins (18:48.267)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (18:50.631)
There are degrees, like every infant is so different though. I just want to know okay where are we at? How are they? What's their... everybody's different as far as like maybe what's their normal but I want to know.

Rachael Hutchins (19:02.507)
how things are moving.

Dr. Shannon (19:03.911)
It just, it's coming in and it's gotta come out. How about our poop and our pee diapers? So, mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (19:08.466)
and consistency like formula babies can have like more firm harder poop so it feels like it'd be easier to get constipated on formula but again it's not to not formula but if you know that and you kind of can identify that we can talk about other things and then breastfed babies contend it's a lot softer so I always feel like they kind of poop more but they also digest more of the breast milk like it's more like used in their body

Dr. Shannon (19:13.247)
Very different.

Dr. Shannon (19:17.311)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, how they're eating. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (19:28.13)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (19:34.346)
absorbed and more functional so they like it's kind of like less poop but it's like more often i don't know if that makes sense

Dr. Shannon (19:35.718)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (19:41.023)
Mm-hmm. So that's kind of, um, that just jumps out to me off the top of my head when we were coming up with the outline as far as like these are things that I'm really asking off. Now, I don't, if there's an issue and parents are coming with an issue, then they're talking about they're very fussy. They're very gassy, you know, those types of things. Then yeah, we

I go through a little bit more in that. Are they always gassy? What seems to work? Does anything help? Does it not help? So, I mean there's more to it, but these basic ones I am asking every, you know, pediatric exam whether they come in with Whatever their issue is. Does that make sense? So if they're coming in with constipation issues, mm-hmm. It's sleep and tummy time Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm because I'll see a lot

Rachael Hutchins (20:05.87)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Rachael Hutchins (20:23.31)
Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, you want to look at the whole thing again. Usually what they think is the issue is not the issue Like and or you learn more about

Dr. Shannon (20:32.651)
Mm-hmm connecting the dots. Mm-hmm connecting the dots

Rachael Hutchins (20:36.338)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you gotta look at the whole thing because I could say I have I Mean you could say they have gas but then learning more about their feeding and how they're feeding and how they're latching Can correlate and we can learn if that gas is within the normal range because it is normal for newborns to have gas or is The way they're nursing or feeding impacting that

Dr. Shannon (20:47.377)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (21:00.203)
Exactly.

Rachael Hutchins (21:00.49)
And so that's, you kind of bring it all together by asking about feeding or asking about sleep or whatever. So I get it. And I think it's so helpful. And for a new mom to hear that this is looking at the whole picture, this is what that is. And again, we're just trying to help paint that whole picture. Why this is so beneficial.

Dr. Shannon (21:06.896)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (21:14.055)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (21:17.679)
Mm-hmm, exactly. Nope. So that's kind of those, I guess the go-to's, the questions that I'm looking at, yeah. Of course there's the exam aspect of things, but I wanna go into, I wanna touch a little bit on some of the...

Rachael Hutchins (21:27.69)
The history you're gathering. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (21:41.643)
some of the nerve parts of the nervous system nervous system function and then also when I'm looking at like structurally in the spine so Um, I don't know how yeah how you're yeah. Well that but like why? Am I Asking about head rotation with nursing and do they nurse well on both sides? And why is that cluing me in to where in the spine do I need to look and why I'm asking about how?

Rachael Hutchins (21:47.455)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (21:50.678)
Like how you're physically assessing.

Rachael Hutchins (22:04.404)
Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (22:08.781)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (22:11.219)
birth impacted that. Does that make sense? I don't know how I want to like get there with this because we have our outline but I'm also like I don't know how I want to like connect everything. It'll work out. I want to go into, okay here's what I want to start with. I want to start with...

Rachael Hutchins (22:11.872)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (22:31.647)
the cervical spine and you've got seven vertebrae in your spine and your cervical spine and the top three well occiput so you know c0 I guess or whatnot but base of the skull and then you have atlas and axis so c1 c2 and those are where all of your flexion extension

is occiput atlas. So base of the skull and that top bone of the neck flexion extension. So tucking the chin and looking all the way up at the ceiling. That's where that occurs. And then the atlas axis is rotation. So that's everything turning left and right. That is where all of that motion occurs in the spine. The rest of the cervical spine is essentially for support. And fun fact with tummy time, tummy time is how the baby develops their cervical curve in their spine. Cause when they're born, they're in that little C shape. And so tummy time, that's that first introduction of

really forming that cervical curve, which impacts them for the rest of their life. Anyways, that's where, so now that we know that flexion extension and rotation occurs on that very, very upper neck area, if we have a baby that is born and their chin is tucked a little bit, and so now we've got a misalignment in that atlanto-occipital joint, then...

that presents a set of problems, you know, as far as now we might have nursing issues because we don't have a lot of good flexion extension. Now we're arching really bad. Like we're trying to the baby tries to fix things. I've heard of babies where they will headbutt because they are literally trying to fix a subluxation that is happening in their in their body. And that's the only way that they know how to do it or they're screaming and crying because it's not working. So also, too, if they come out and we've got

Rachael Hutchins (24:17.166)
Hmm.

Dr. Shannon (24:26.271)
chin up a little bit in the air. We've got an AS, what we call anterior superior occiput. So we have these different levels and degrees that the bones are moving. That presents a whole other set of issues. That's our stargazer baby, that's their looking up. And then you gotta think about, okay, so now if they're stuck in this flexion and they're stuck in this extension position, what is that doing globally to the rest of their spine? Because everything is connected. The sacrum is connected to the cranial bones. So that's pulling and tugging on everything.

Rachael Hutchins (24:32.055)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (24:55.919)
So that's where I want to get at with how that birth, why I'm asking about those type of things or wanting to know, well, this is how I birthed or they were stuck in the canal for this a little bit, like, okay, how is that impacting that, that bony, that skeletal development? So that's one thing. When I'm going into nursing and they're not nursing well on one side versus the other, that has a lot to do with...

Atlas axis, because that's rotation. And Atlas and axis can, typically in our infants, it's just going laterally, but as we get older and the bone actually forms this little curve and it kind of looks like this little shelf, now it can come laterally and it can come superior, inferior as well too. So this is more of my adults, but just to give people a clue, like it can subluxate in all these different areas. And that's at C1, that's that top bone in the neck. That's where

the nerve supply is going to head, neck, shoulders, eyes, ears, nose, throat, that's headaches, moods, fatigue, balance, anxiety, that's all of these things that are connected to that top bone in the neck. So when I'm looking at that with infants, obviously I'm not looking at infants with anxiety, I'm not talking about that, but sorry, I digress with that, but that's where I'm looking with that rotation, so if baby is not wanting to turn their head and nurse at one side, that gives me a clue into.

atlas and axis and how they are aligned. And then if we're not turning and we're not doing flexion extension properly, then we can potentially have hiccups in how baby rolls and how baby engages in tummy time. Are they using left and right arm equally? Are we gonna get a flat spot on the head because they're not moving in all directions? And then it just, it...

kind of snowballs from there. I'm not trying to freak people out in a bad way, but it's more of that's where I go back to the beginning with that is it's setting, it's how the child is then going to develop from that point on because that beginning stages impacts everything else as well. Cause then it's like, we're looking at rolling, we're looking at sitting, we're looking at crawling and crawling patterns. And then we're looking at walking. Like it's, it is all connected there. So,

Dr. Shannon (27:15.271)
just tiny little insight into those, those top bones in the neck, you know, those top bones in the neck.

Rachael Hutchins (27:22.314)
You said tiny little insight and my mind is over here exploding.

Dr. Shannon (27:27.059)
Well, I feel like I'm not doing it service because there's so much to it, but, and I don't know that I'm explaining it very well. I don't know. But there's a lot.

Rachael Hutchins (27:34.186)
You are doing it service. Oh my gosh. Well, if anything, it's just sort of like, it just is like, there's so much connected. There's so much happening and we don't see it. We're not trained to see it as the everyday person. And so I just love, it just shows how much you know and it shows how much there is to know and so much to evaluate with how little newborns, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (27:43.35)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (27:49.747)
right.

Dr. Shannon (27:57.595)
and how much we can do with care with very simple adjustments. I mean, I didn't even go, there's dentate ligaments that attach to all parts of the spine. And it just, it's how this tensegrity happens in the spine, how everything is connected. And so a pull here causes a push here, causes a pull here. And that's why if we're not nursing well, I wanna know about constipation issues. Cause a lot of times that's connected there, you know, that spinal cord is tethered there, the base of the spine.

Rachael Hutchins (28:23.253)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (28:27.067)
It's the same covering that goes up into the brain and covers the brain. So it's all connected there. Yeah, so that's the one that's what I wanted to really hit home with the that birthing position and why all of that matters and what it that implication as far as the skeletal structure. Now the adjustments, I guess we didn't even have any put in here like.

Rachael Hutchins (28:33.076)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (28:39.523)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (28:43.714)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (28:55.123)
What do the adjustments look like? It's very simple. It's not snapping, cracking, popping, whatever you want to call it. It's very small, gentle touch that can restore that motion. And it's not always a one-time fix. It really depends on the degree and level of the issue that we have there. But I had a mom in recently. She's got two older girls, but we were doing their exams. So what are we like?

Rachael Hutchins (29:00.053)
Mm-hmm

Rachael Hutchins (29:03.785)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (29:24.619)
and nine and seven. And I do nervous system scans and the temperature scan I have really assesses like autonomic nervous system function. We're going to talk about that in a minute. And that's really looking at like that para balance. I look at like blood vessel gland, organ function gives me some insight into how the nervous system is functioning, how their body is handling stress and those types of things. So we did both of their scans and different pregnancies for mom, both cesarean births.

and the girls have, but they have different, very different, not issues, but very different things going on. Some little, some sensory issues over here, some behavioral issues over here, but they both had bigger temperature difference readings, which shows me that there's some nervous system irritation at that top bone in the neck. And what I looked at her and said, and I was like, they can have very similar subluxations. So that nervous system impact.

in the aspect of like it happened in the same area of the spine, but it is manifesting completely different in these children because we're all so unique. It's biochemical individuality. And that's where I want to go with a little bit of that care because it's not a one-size-fits-all care plan. So everybody that comes in with nursing issues, it's not the same thing every time. Everybody that has constipation, it's not the same thing every time. There's not the same reason why. So that's why, yeah, it's well and good if you want to use Miralax and crap like that, but that

Rachael Hutchins (30:26.634)
Mm. Right.

Rachael Hutchins (30:36.606)
Mm-hmm. Right.

No.

Dr. Shannon (30:50.951)
That's why it's not going to work for everybody. And if you can get to that root cause a little bit more, that you can resolve it as a whole. Yeah, that was a sidebar tangent.

Rachael Hutchins (30:53.271)
No.

Rachael Hutchins (30:56.534)
You can actually resolve the issue as a whole. Mm hmm. Yeah. Versus just putting a bandaid on it and maybe it goes away, but it'll come back if you don't treat the root of it. So I think understanding and that it's like a, it's an ever changing thing, right? Like, and I think when you do it, the sooner you do it in a little one's life, I think the better the foundation is laid, but it's just sort of like an ebb and a flow and based on what they go through in their life, we kind of keep coming back to chiropractic care for that.

Dr. Shannon (31:05.96)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:18.745)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (31:26.582)
kind of re-regulating of everything. At least that's how we treat it with our family because my babies and my boys have seen chiropractor since they were born. And it's this, we just kind of always like are with the flow and use it as this well care and checking in with all the things you're saying as they've grown and things, how they're adapting and how their, nervous systems are regulating or not in their current environment and with what they're facing.

Dr. Shannon (31:28.496)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:31.765)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:38.407)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:44.511)
to help them adapt to those stressors.

Dr. Shannon (31:51.859)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (31:54.57)
I just think laying that foundation is so important and just understanding the benefits overall. I think it's so beautiful and I love that you do it and I love how much you know. It's mind blowing.

Dr. Shannon (32:01.495)
I know. It's neat. Oh, goodness. Well, thanks. No. There's so much more. All I can think of is other instructors that should be talking about this that are within the International Chiropractic Pediatric Association. I keep thinking of like, oh, they would explain this so much better. So I know I'm missing things, but I do mean this is it. This is what you get. And I got the podcast and they know. So.

Rachael Hutchins (32:16.926)
You stop that. You stop that Dr. Shannon. Nope, you do.

Girl, you're doing amazing. You're sharing the knowledge, you're sharing your wisdom, you're compassionate. Yes, there are other people out there doing it. They don't do it like you do it. Don't go down that road. The more you share, the more it helps people, and slowly but surely people awaken to this type of care. Yeah, and everyone comes to it in different ways.

Dr. Shannon (32:30.803)
Ha ha.

Love it, love it.

Dr. Shannon (32:39.995)
I'm like, oh, did I say this? Did I not say this? Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (32:47.315)
They hear it how they need to hear it.

Rachael Hutchins (32:51.914)
I'm a huge proponent of it. It has helped me tremendously from pregnancy to postpartum to my kids. I mean, I can't say enough about just the holistic nature of it and everything you're saying is like, you're not getting that kind of care from any other practitioner.

Dr. Shannon (33:02.284)
Mm-hmm

Dr. Shannon (33:07.243)
That's pretty cool. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So I will say that. Another thing when with infant or newborn exams and why I'm asking some of those physical things with birth like with a cesarean birth, there's primitive reflexes. So when a baby is born,

there are certain reflexes that they are born with. These are kind of like primitive brainstem things. You don't have to think about it. There's rooting reflex. So you stroke from cheek to ear, the baby will turn, open their mouth. That helps with feeding. There's palmar reflex. There's galant. This is my favorite one. You stroke from the shoulder on one side down to that hip, that top iliac crest on each side. And the baby should kind of like turn towards that side. You do the same thing. They turn to the other side. That reflex,

is when they are in utero and when we're in labor and birth and the uterus is contracting and it's contracting and the baby feels it on one side and they shimmy, they move, they shimmy out of the birth canal. They actually like help themselves be born. It's that beautiful dance with mom and baby. So all of these reflexes are there for a reason, survival aspects when baby is born. But as baby develops and as we get older and frontal lobe develops, yes this takes a while.

but those reflexes are turned off. We no longer need to be stimulated for rooting reflex. We no longer need these things anymore. They need to be turned off in a certain order at a certain time. And that's where those developmental milestones come in as far as, is baby rolling? Is baby doing tummy time? Is then baby like moving from laying on belly, rolling to both sides, rolling belly to back, back to belly? Are they sitting? All of those things.

happening in that order and that timeline. That's what those developmental milestones are. And that's where some of those reflexes come into play. Sometimes they don't get turned off at the right time in the right order. And with newborn and infants, I'm seeing, are they there? And if they're present, that's good. If they're not, that's not, you know, like I'm looking at both aspects because we want them to be there, but then they go away and they all go away at different times, different reasons as the baby develops. It's really, really cool. My older kids, I'm looking at, are they still there? We have a whole other episode on that. I won't get into it.

Rachael Hutchins (35:14.45)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (35:24.982)
Well, yeah, like the Morrow reflex I've heard about, like that is one that should be turned off. And then if by a certain age it isn't, then that's a sign of that nervous system dysregulation and that they need a certain type of therapy to

Dr. Shannon (35:27.048)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (35:33.575)
is that we need yes yeah so we can do adjustments and then there's exercises to help extinguish those reflexes because what happens then too is where our body is using so much extra energy to process this Mara reflex that we don't want we don't need to be startled every time a door closes it's so much extra energy that the body is using and it's dysregulating he keeps you in a state exactly so

Rachael Hutchins (35:48.896)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (35:54.582)
Mm-hmm, so it helps keep you in that a better state overall. Yeah. Yeah

Dr. Shannon (36:00.583)
with my older kids, that's what we're looking at. But my young ones, I wanna know, do we have a rooting reflex, do we not? So we're checking those. But with cesarean birth, they don't get to experience gallant at all. So that's, it's very interesting when they're born, they don't experience. They also don't get the good cranial molding and the squish coming out of the birth canal. They don't get that bacterial bath. I'm not bad mouthing cesarean birth at all. I'm just letting you know, because I have a cesarean kiddo and I deal with it. It's...

Rachael Hutchins (36:14.262)
Mmm.

Dr. Shannon (36:30.163)
But now we know. So there's things that we know that happened in a normal physiological birth and then this did not happen in the cesarean birth. What can I do to set my kid up for success? Because there's things you can do, you're not helpless. So there's things you can do. But that's why a long birth that presents different, I wanna ask and know, okay, how long was their pushing stage? And then how long was their labor? Like that's what I wanna know.

Rachael Hutchins (36:31.502)
Mm-hmm. That's information.

Rachael Hutchins (36:39.682)
Mm-hmm. Right, right, it's all just about what you know.

Rachael Hutchins (36:56.872)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (36:57.751)
when I'm talking to mom about baby, that gives me ideas into cranial molding because we should have an overlap of those cranial bones. And then as baby comes out and starts to nurse and starts to nurse and form the palate, which changes the shape of the skull, that's when we get some of that cranial molding. That's why that nursing is so important to know, okay, are we molding correctly? And rapid birth as well, presents just different issues. I'm looking at...

Rachael Hutchins (37:12.592)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (37:17.281)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (37:26.107)
that cranial molding again and their nervous system response. Are they super stressed when they came out or are they low tone? Super super docile sleepy like there's two different things there that you can get. Asyncletic position that's that kind of we talked about with the flexion extension any sort of weird rotation clavicle all of those things there.

Rachael Hutchins (37:31.253)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (37:37.82)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (37:41.028)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (37:49.906)
Mm-hmm. That's where we might see the torticollis. If they were maybe in that acyclic position for an extended amount of time, which is this tilt.

Dr. Shannon (37:55.423)
Mm-hmm.

extended by no time. So we've got a head tilt and a rotation. So head tilt, they can just have head tilted to one side. I see it a lot of times in a car seat. I do not like when baby always turns to one side in a car seat. I want them to kind of be able to turn to both sides. When you have a head tilt and a rotation, that's the full blown torticollis. So that involves a little bit more of the SCM muscle. That involves a little bit, that's different. And so when I'm looking at things, I'm like, do we have a head tilt?

Rachael Hutchins (38:13.265)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (38:19.772)
Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (38:25.751)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (38:27.655)
Or do we have full blown torticollis? Sometimes we have the torticollis, that's what I'm gonna see a little bit more, the head shape is different. I can see some plagiocephaly start to form as well, which all of that impacts that the brain is going to grow to how the skull is. And so we want that to be growing and molding properly. Instrument deliveries as well too, that's a whole other.

Rachael Hutchins (38:29.809)
Mm.

Rachael Hutchins (38:33.898)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (38:38.351)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (38:49.759)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (38:57.103)
a whole other issue because I want to know, again too with the stress aspects and that nervous system response, but cranial molding things as well too because again that brain is going to grow in form to that shape of the skull. And then...

Rachael Hutchins (39:08.034)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (39:20.403)
the feeding challenges. I wanted to reiterate the aspect of

why nursing is so important or breastfeeding in general. Well, not breastfeeding, like feeding, feeding in general. Like it's, it doesn't, you don't have to nurse. You don't have to breastfeed. Like you can do, you know, bottle feeding as well. That's, that's totally fine. But knowing that how baby nurses can impact the, like I want to look at the shape of the palette and I want to know that tongue function, like all of those things that play part in how

the bones in the skull are going to eventually form and mold. So that's why I ask all those questions. That's it. That's why I ask all those questions. I didn't even get into the sympathetic pair, sympathetic men. Well, I will say this. Sometimes you have babies that are born in...

Rachael Hutchins (40:09.77)
Just a little bit.

Rachael Hutchins (40:14.878)
No, it's beautiful.

Dr. Shannon (40:21.683)
that stress so they if mom was kind of in fight or flight then sometimes baby can be in fire flight and it can be very Stressful for them. So you've got your central nervous system peripheral nervous system central is the brain and the spinal cord peripherals everything else outside of that and Within that peripheral you have somatic and you have autonomic and somatic is like the muscles So that's the brain telling the muscles to move and the muscle saying hey, this is what's going on

And then your autonomic is then put into that. That's where you hear sympathetic, parasympathetic, and then your gut, your enteric. It's like it's whole, it's really cool. It's its whole thing. But that is, and when we're doing adjustments, we can really impact that autonomic. So not only the skeletal aspect. So I'm talking about, yes, how are the muscles tight? Is this bone out of place? Yes. Okay, let's do that adjustment.

Rachael Hutchins (41:00.93)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (41:17.983)
help those muscles, help the head turn, help the head shape, but also it's going to impact the other parts of the nervous system as well too. So then we can have better response from the brain to the body, the body to inform the brain better about what's going on with the stressors, that smooth muscle, cardiac muscle, glands, you know, blood vessels, glands, organs, that aspect of things too. So I did want to touch on that.

Rachael Hutchins (41:29.558)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (41:48.158)
Yeah, it's more than just the skeletal, right? It's helping everything. And that's what I think a lot of people think is just bones and cracking and stuff. And it's like, obviously you have exemplified here how it's all connected, how it's all different. And even if like two people had similar births, like how their baby responds or how they respond could still be different based on other factors. So I think this has been tremendously helpful. You've laid out like based on the type of birth you had, just having that knowledge of like, okay, this is important for me to just

Dr. Shannon (41:51.041)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (42:18.11)
assess and review with the right provider such as yourself all of this stuff to try and figure out the best course of care for a mom and or you know a family and their baby So thank you for sharing everything you have shared here We also have a few other episodes that highlight some of these topics. We have episode 95 How the birthing process impacts infant feeding so you're gonna hear a more in-depth conversation about that in episode 95

Dr. Shannon (42:25.519)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:31.163)
Yeah! Thanks, thanks, thanks.

Rachael Hutchins (42:46.954)
And then episode 69, benefits of the pediatric chiropractic care. And then episode 57 was the one with Dr. Rosen. And he talks about mode of delivery and that nervous system response and all of that, and how that impacts the pediatric kind of care plan with chiropractic adjustments. So that's a wonderful episode. I've listened to that a couple of times and shared it with many people. So all really helpful episodes for continuing to learn.

Dr. Shannon (42:57.815)
Mm-hmm. He talks a lot about cranial.

Rachael Hutchins (43:16.81)
about the importance of pediatric chiropractic care.

Dr. Shannon (43:17.191)
Mm-hmm. It's all the things. I want to mention that this isn't based on a Pathways article. So Pathways to Family Wellness, it's that International Chiropractic Pediatric Association magazine that's put out. But there is an article that talks about relaying the groundwork, five reasons why your birth can affect your baby and your parenting.

And so I think it's worth mentioning that's like another, just another article to read that goes, it just does this a little bit differently, but again, that's more information, all the information. Ha ha.

Rachael Hutchins (43:44.854)
resource.

Rachael Hutchins (43:52.258)
That's what we're here for, offering information, sharing knowledge, sharing resources, you know, and hopefully we've left, you know, you with a little nugget of wisdom that you can take with you to, you know, have a healthier, more satisfying birth and postpartum journey. Go see your chiropractor, especially Dr. Shannon, if you live in the area.

Dr. Shannon (44:12.651)
That's right. If you, yeah, if you gathered anything from the show, just go see your cat tractor. All right. Thanks friends. There you go. Thanks friends. Tune in next week for another episode.

Rachael Hutchins (44:18.07)
That's it. And make sure they're as thorough as Dr. Shannon. Ha ha ha.