Ep 132: Navigating Motherhood and Friendships with Mazi Robinson, MS, LPC, CPCS, NCC

Today Dr. Shannon chats with Mazi Robinson founder and director of Cultivate: a counseling center with community gatherings which aims to encourage women to cultivate joy, courage, and freedom in their lives as they pursue emotional, relational, and spiritual health.  They discuss the identity changes that come with motherhood and how that impacts our friendships, as well as lots of other topics:

• life stages and themes and how those impact our friendships
• the expectation of friendships and managing those expectations 
• our attachment style - how it impacts our friendships and can we change our style
• we're all so tired as mothers - how do we find the time for friendships
• how to handle friendships that fade during motherhood 

Resources:
Episode 79: embracing the imperfections of motherhood, turning anxiety into awakening
Gathering discussion at Cultivate
Cultivate - website
Cultivate - Instagram

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:02.35)
Hello, hello. You are listening to the Aligned Birth Podcast. I am Dr. Shannon. I'm one of the hosts of the show. And we usually have two hosts. So Dula Rachel usually joins me as well, but today we have an interview. And as you know, these are some of my favorite days talking to members of the community. Now we typically talk to birth worker members of the community, right? So with the Aligned Birth Podcast, it's very birth heavy.

But Rachel and I also are moms to two boys. And so we have a big desire to talk about that transition into motherhood as well, because there's some identity changes that stay with you forever. And today it's gonna be a little bit more about how your identity changes in motherhood, but what that looks like for friendships. So we're gonna talk about life stages and themes, how those impact our friendships.

expectations or friendships, managing expectations. I'm gonna have some words about that later on. Our attachment style and how that impacts our friendships. We're all tired. So how do we find the time to carve out time for friendships? And then how do we handle friendships that fade during motherhood as well? So those are some of the things that we're gonna talk about with our amazing special guest.

Maisie Robinson and she is a licensed professional counselor and speaker specializing in helping women discover their true voice as they navigate self-worth, self-esteem challenges, relationship concerns, and life stage transitions. In addition to her work as a therapist, she maintains an active speaking schedule presenting workshops on topics such as anxiety, self-worth, healthy relationships, communication, personal growth, leadership, and mental health awareness. She's the founder and

Through its counseling center and community gatherings, Cultivate encourages women to cultivate joy, courage, and freedom in their lives as they pursue emotional, relational, and spiritual health. She lives in Atlanta, Georgia with her husband and two sons and she is an avid Friends fan and loves dinner on a porch with friends. Welcome to the show, Maisie.

Mazi Robinson (02:13.718)
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to get to chat. This is gonna be fun.

Dr. Shannon (02:21.706)
Oh, me too. I, so Maisie and I have never met in real life. So this is our first like interaction, which is, which is always fun. Cause it happens a lot to these interviews. I just find people and I'm like, oh, I must, I must talk to you. And I found you through mutual friend, Dr. Megan tubes. And so that's how, that's how this started. So Megan, I had her on the show episode 79. You have to listen to it. Hers was, cause she's also

Mazi Robinson (02:40.522)
Yes!

Dr. Shannon (02:50.114)
a counselor as well, a therapist. She did Embracing the Imperfections of Motherhood and Turning Anxiety into Awakening. It was a fascinating episode, but that's how I found you. And then you had posted something, I even wrote, I went back and wrote it down, and it was March of 2023. We're recording this in, well, towards the end of November, 2023. And it was about a gathering that you did, and it was talking about friendships.

Mazi Robinson (02:57.601)
Yes.

Mazi Robinson (03:15.831)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (03:16.01)
And that's, I feel like I was like that annoying person was like, love, like, comment, comment. Like I was like all of these things. So when I saw that I was like, we have to do this. So I don't even know where I want to start with, with talking about it. Maybe the shifts of identity and motherhood, how you got into this and the cultivate gatherings that you do. Like where, where should we go with this?

Mazi Robinson (03:39.286)
Well, we can start with motherhood if you would like. Okay, yes. So the shifts of identity and motherhood, this is just huge. I would say the two biggest shifts that women experience in their life are motherhood, if someone chooses to be a mother, and then midlife, which every woman will go through.

Dr. Shannon (03:42.174)
Yes, yes.

Dr. Shannon (04:07.105)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (04:07.658)
But motherhood is an enormous shift. Everything in your life changes when you become a mother. Your body is impacted. Your relationships are impacted. Your priorities are impacted. Your responsibilities are impacted. Your schedule is impacted. Your availability is impacted. Your interest, like there is no part of your life that, that is not impacted.

Dr. Shannon (04:30.386)
your entire being.

Mazi Robinson (04:34.566)
by motherhood. And I think sometimes that can be surprising for people once they, for women, once they become a mother of just like, wow, my entire life is impacted. I thought this area of my life would remain the same, but nope. And so that can be an enormous adjustment or an enormous part of the adjustment of motherhood of just realizing, no, everything is impacted. And I

that you have to then sacrifice everything on the altar of motherhood, but everything is impacted and how you choose for it to be impacted the degree, you know, that's kind of your choice and the way your life is set up. But, but it really is amazing, you know, I know for some women that I've worked with over the years, they are surprised by how much they love motherhood, they are surprised

very career focused, their career just doesn't hold their interest anymore. They are really, you know, really, really focused on being a mom. They love being a mom. And then the opposite, you know, which is its own journey of someone who desperately wanted to be a mother. And then once they have children, they realize, Oh, this is not quite what I totally thought it was going to be.

Dr. Shannon (05:54.701)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (06:00.258)
Or I'm realizing maybe I'm not a baby mom. I think my time to shine will be like when they're six to eight, you know, because there are stages of motherhood and they're just based on your wiring. Yeah, based on your.

Dr. Shannon (06:04.634)
Thanks for watching!

Dr. Shannon (06:08.694)
they're the stages of motherhood too. And I was going to say, I know that you can, yeah, that what you're saying, like those ebbs and flows within that motherhood that causes the identity to shift again.

Mazi Robinson (06:22.89)
Yeah, absolutely. And based on how you're wired, you may enjoy some stages more than others. You may be a teenage mom, you may be an elementary school mom. And so there's that factor. But, and so then kind of going back to what I was saying, for some women, they so were just so wanted to be a mom, they desperately wanted to be a mom, and then they become a mom, and it's not all of what they thought it would be.

Dr. Shannon (06:28.431)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (06:49.234)
And that can be very unsettling and just, whoa, okay, I thought my identity was going to be motherhood. And so I'd kind of been moving towards that end, but I don't think I want my identity to be motherhood. So then what does it look like to have multiple identities? Which I think is ultimately the journey for a lot of the big journey of motherhood, of what does it look like to...

Dr. Shannon (07:09.539)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (07:16.334)
to play multiple roles, to play multiple identities, because no matter what it is, it's never good to put all of our eggs in one basket and be like, this is my thing, this is who I am, I am a mother, I am an attorney, I am whatever. And so learning to do that juggle.

Dr. Shannon (07:36.106)
and kind of have them mesh together in a way, you know? So it's not like what you were saying, just that one, holding onto that one identity. And I've worked with moms who knew that they kind of expected just based on how they had reacted to things in life, kind of expected that the transition to motherhood was going to impact their mental health. And so we got them set up with like.

Mazi Robinson (07:39.08)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (08:02.362)
counseling beforehand because it was kind of like, this transition is going to be big, and they kind of knew it and anticipated it. So that's like a little counseling plug. But I remember that very distinctly and I loved, I was like, man, you're so self-aware. That's awesome to know, not that it's going to happen, but to prepare for it as a just in case and to set yourself up for success while you're prenatally and then to help with that postpartum time period, which is so big. That's really big.

Mazi Robinson (08:07.32)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (08:22.35)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (08:32.07)
Oh, absolutely. And I think that's wonderful when women can think ahead like that of just like, this might be a thing for me. So let me just go ahead, even before the baby has been born, let me just go ahead and explore who I might wanna connect with or have on call, so to speak.

Dr. Shannon (08:37.474)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (08:42.321)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (08:56.202)
Because again, as you might think, you know yourself in and out. But once you become a mom, there are things you just haven't.

Dr. Shannon (09:04.912)
Yeah, yeah, give yourself, get a teenager and see. That's my, that's where I'm at right now. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (09:11.75)
Exactly, exactly. I mean, I remember just having my first child, and I'm saying like he was weeks old, months old, like early, early motherhood. I never realized how important it was for me to feel competent. And when as a new mom, I had never breastfed before. I had...

I didn't do a lot of babysitting, so I'd really never taken care of a baby before. I'd never tried to get a baby to go to sleep. I had never, you know, like all these things and, and the not feeling competent, like I knew how to master this problem. That was huge for me. And I never realized how feeling competent was clearly a value of some sort. Really important. And, and just those things like, Oh.

Dr. Shannon (09:41.023)
Mm-hmm

Dr. Shannon (09:57.326)
Clearly important. Yeah. Ah.

Mazi Robinson (10:03.694)
Part of the struggle I'm feeling is yes, I'm tired and yes, this and that, but I don't feel competent. And so that really hits on like my sense of core self. And so that was a really interesting thing. Overwhelming. Or it did for me. Mm hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:16.03)
and that's why it feels so deep or feels so personal sometimes. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. That's almost like using that feelings wheel. Our pastor talked about this at church the other Sunday. I've talked about this so many times where it's like, you know, you might be like happy, sad, we have those, but like there's other feelings on that wheel. So it sounds like too saying, okay, I know I'm tired, but what's it really boiling down to and hitting on deeper?

Mazi Robinson (10:45.118)
Right, right, exactly. What, like, I know I'm tired, I know I'm stressed, but there, this is, there's something deeper here. Let me get curious about it. And then when I had my second, because I kind of knew, I mean, I knew the basics. My second baby was a little bit of a, he was a little bit of a different infant in the very beginning, but it was like, I know what to do. So.

Dr. Shannon (10:45.722)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (10:51.29)
Thanks for watching!

Dr. Shannon (11:08.434)
Mm-hmm. Yes, you're like I feel more competent now Yes, I know I know that I had a vast difference between my first and second Pregnancies labors births and postpartum like it was vastly different. So I definitely relate to that competent feeling So let's talk about

Mazi Robinson (11:12.777)
Yes, exactly.

Mazi Robinson (11:24.641)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (11:30.87)
And we've kind of touched on this as far as the baby stage, you know, the really young stage, baby stage, toddler stage coming up into like, they get a little bit self-sufficient. So there are stages in motherhood. And so maybe let's touch on some of how those stages of motherhood impact friendships and how motherhood can, I got to maybe shift some of your priorities. You know, you're talking about like, I identify as all these things. And if you are a friend and then you throw in motherhood to that.

identity, sometimes it can be hard to maintain that same degree of what you were able to give to those other relationships. So maybe we can chat on some of the stages of motherhood and then how that applies to friendships.

Mazi Robinson (12:16.87)
Oh yes, I definitely think the stages of motherhood, there's an impact there with our friendships. Oftentimes in early motherhood, so infant and toddler and preschool years, you will hear people, you know, when people reflect back, they will say, it was fairly easy to meet people. And everyone's journey is different. So.

Dr. Shannon (12:40.343)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (12:44.966)
But there are lots of things for new moms, young moms. You know, there's groups like Mops and other moms groups. And you go to the playground a lot and you see someone standing by herself and you make a joke and then you start talking and you have play dates and play groups and then you have preschool and that's a whole new world of potential mothers to meet. And so...

Dr. Shannon (12:54.23)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (13:08.062)
There is more access to potential friends and friends and social life when children are younger, despite the fact that you're schlepping all the stuff and the naptimes and the feeding and, you know, all of those things, which can be a barrier to spending time with friends, which we'll kind of get back to that in just a second. But then as kids get older, that

Dr. Shannon (13:21.402)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (13:34.854)
access to meeting people and being with other parents, it changes. You know, as your kids get older, they might play sports. So there's access to meeting people and socializing and so forth. But then as they as they get past that on into middle school and high school, there isn't that on ramp of like, oh, I'm going to meet people through my kid. But then the other side of that is like, I don't want to meet people through my kid.

Dr. Shannon (13:40.895)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (14:05.532)
Yes!

Mazi Robinson (14:06.252)
Like, why do I have to be friends with this person just because we're on the same baseball team?

Dr. Shannon (14:11.938)
Oh, that hits really hard because yeah, we were in the soccer world for a while and I was like, these are not my people. Then I was like, this is not, I wasn't feeling this. So yeah, you run into that.

Mazi Robinson (14:22.69)
Yeah, you run into that. So there are multiple sides to this issue of, kids can be a wonderful gateway to adult friendships, but then you can also feel a little trapped in adult friendships because of your kid. And then as they get older, you add in the element of like, oh, I met this mom through my kid because my kid and her kid were friends, but uh-oh, we're now in sixth grade.

no longer friends anymore. So can I still be friends with the mom? And do we still get together with the families? Or do we only get together with couples? Like, you know, it can just turn into a whole thing. But I definitely think where we are in motherhood, it can impact how easy it is to make friends, meet friends and make friends. And it can impact how much availability we have.

with friends. I think that's one of the things that I have been surprised at as my kids have gotten older. Because you know, when you're, when you have little ones, you're like, Oh my goodness, like the feeding and the nap time and I'm like, there's just so there's so much. But when you get whole, when your kids get older, it's a different kind of busy. And what I have discovered is it's a different kind of busy that

Dr. Shannon (15:38.903)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (15:46.706)
I do have less availability for friendships because when everyone was little, we were all kind of on the same schedule. Like we were all going to preschool three to five days a week until 1230 or whatever. And then we all kind of had nap time roughly around the same time, you know, and things like that. But when you get into elementary school and middle school and high school is just a different beast, you know.

Dr. Shannon (16:05.886)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (16:13.312)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (16:14.27)
Some kids playing baseball, some kids playing baseball year round, some kids playing soccer, some kids playing football, some child is in dance, one child is taking art lessons. Like our schedules change and it may, and you know, and then we fall into the role of taxi driver, right? But it impacts our availability. And so like those spontaneous meetups you have in the afternoon with your neighbors, that doesn't happen when they're 12, right?

Dr. Shannon (16:32.084)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (16:42.47)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (16:43.85)
because you're shuttling them around. And so then that feeling of, oh, I'm feeling disconnected from my friends because I'm spending so much time in the car, or I'm spending so much time watching soccer, or going to dance rehearsal, or whatever it is. And so that's when it is so, so important, even before we get to that point in our motherhood journey, that we are very conscious of my social life, my friendships cannot be tied to motherhood.

Like I do have to have a separate life. Now, some of my friends might be mutual mom friends. That's great. But it cannot be so intertwined with my role as mother because my role as mother is going to go through changes and evolve. And if I want to maintain and sustain some friendships, we're not gonna be able to maintain and sustain all.

Dr. Shannon (17:15.286)
Hmm... Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (17:42.238)
then that almost has to be a different bucket in my life. That I am intentional with my investment of time and energy. I set aside time for that. And also just recognizing the older we get, the reality is our friendship circles tend to get smaller. And there's a lot of reason for that. We get busier, we get more choosy, we have less patience for...

Dr. Shannon (17:45.902)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (18:09.914)
I was going to say, I know it's, and that's kind of what I'm approaching 41 and my, my kids are approaching 11 and approaching 14. And so I kind of, um, so it's fun. Rachel and I talk about it. I deal with so many like pregnant moms in the office and I'm like, it's, it's a fun part to be at this stage. And then even kind of moving along and helping women along that stage. But knowing

Like, yeah, I'm just like, I don't have time for fluff right now. And that's when I do meet up with friends. We're very intentional. We usually go have brunch or do a hike or something like that. And it's like truly deep down connection. It's not like a surface level type thing, which sometimes that's what you get like at the playground. And it's like you're watching the kids. You're trying to watch and talk, but you still feel like you've filled your cup a bit because you still feel that you've gotten something there. But I feel like it changes a bit.

And so now wanting that like that deeper connection or yeah, no time for the fluff.

Mazi Robinson (19:07.19)
Yeah, I completely agree. And yeah, as we get older, we have less tolerance for the fluff and we can do the surface small chat, small talk, but we can only do so much. And we want something meatier. We want the full meal rather than just the snack of crackers, so to speak, of friendship. And so it is just...

Dr. Shannon (19:24.844)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (19:30.873)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (19:35.67)
being aware of that, that is going to change for me. In my 20s, I had tons of friends, and in my 40s, I'm probably going to have a much smaller circle. And that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me or I'm doing anything wrong. That is the natural evolution of...

Dr. Shannon (19:48.567)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (19:58.598)
development and relationships. Our circles just get smaller, like that inner circle gets smaller, but we may know more people on that tier two, so to speak. But

Dr. Shannon (20:04.065)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (20:10.202)
I was gonna say the tears of friendships too, yeah.

Mazi Robinson (20:13.878)
Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I think I'm... Oh, no, you go ahead.

Dr. Shannon (20:15.598)
There's definitely, sorry.

No, no, go for it.

Mazi Robinson (20:22.142)
Oh, I was just gonna say, I think it is so, so helpful to think of friendships in levels and tiers because it's a really helpful way to think about how am I going to invest my time, especially when I am tired from the day and tired from all of my responsibilities and I'm responsible for so much.

thinking of friendships in tiers helps me organize my intentionality, so to speak. So, you know, my inner circle, like, I'm really gonna try to show up for their stuff. If they invite people over for dinner, if they have a birthday party, if they invite me over for a hang, like, I'm really gonna try and show up for that. But all the people in that tier two, like, I'll do my best, but that's not, that can't be as important.

as the tier one. And I know that kind of sounds yucky, but we have to make choices. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (21:19.87)
It's the truth though. You've got to make the choice. And I think that's been very eyeopening for me. And it even, we've, and it's funny I mentioned church again cause we've talked about this with, you know, if you do have something that's important in your life, like your faith or your religion, then finding those people that, you know, have those commonalities as well too. So it can be kind of the same.

Um, same thing, even as the kids get older and their sports themes. And if, if you know that this is something that's important to that family, then you kind of gravitate towards those people and you know, you're going to have those schedules, but it allows you the time to go deeper with them, but the tears I think was very eyeopening for me too, because not everybody needs. Access to you, like the really deep vulnerable parts, you know? And then, um, and I feel like that changes with motherhood too. So maybe younger, you are.

you know, reaching out or at the early seasons of motherhood and maybe you do have more friends that you do because you can sit around with play dates and talk, you know, and like mommy and me groups is a little bit easier than, you know, running around toddlers and stuff like that. So then maybe you do have more people that you can go a little bit deeper with. But I feel like that those tiers change in the aspect of like, who am I willing to really be super vulnerable with? Well, maybe vulnerable, but like to just to go deeper with.

And that's, you know, so but yeah, I know I understand how it can feel like when you're like well these different tier levels But there's only so much energy You have to give

Mazi Robinson (22:49.599)
There's only so much energy and there's only so much time and you can't make it to all the things, you know, and it's to your point, you can't share with all the people. Like that's just not gonna be.

Dr. Shannon (22:49.788)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (22:56.188)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (23:02.774)
wise or safe in all instances. And so really knowing, okay, who are the people that I can go to about these things? And even within that inner circle, you may find that I can go to Betty with these things more so than Sally. And just knowing truly who my people are.

Dr. Shannon (23:02.838)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (23:22.678)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (23:28.786)
in the different ways that I need in my life, I think can be really helpful.

Dr. Shannon (23:34.462)
Definitely now. Okay. Let's go. So kind of along those lines of let's you had what was one of the things you had posted? There was you had these five takeaways from the gathering that you did on friendships and I'm going to put the audio to that the gathering that you had. I'm going to put in the show notes because I listened to it while I was cooking dinner one night and it was so good. I wrote like I have a whole page of notes and that's how I came up with the outline for this. I didn't want to like

totally recreate that show or that gathering that you had, but it was so good. But one of them, you talked about your past friendships influence our present day friendships. And I thought that was, cause sometimes maybe this is just me, but I have a feeling it's not, where you feel like you're like, man, I am dealing with the same friendship stuff I thought I was over with in high school. You know, like sometimes it can feel like that again, as you go through the seasons of motherhood and you go through the seasons of friendship.

Mazi Robinson (24:13.706)
Oh yeah.

Dr. Shannon (24:32.742)
So when I read that, that was one of the ones I was like, oh, so you mean we need to like deal with, you're telling me I need to go to therapy and deal with those past things to like, cause that's influencing the future. So I don't know, let's chat about that.

Mazi Robinson (24:49.21)
Oh yes, for sure. Our past friendships most definitely influence our present day friendships. One of the things that I often say is there's nothing new under the sun, and I know that's a passage from scripture, but there's truly nothing new under the sun. Like anything that activates us in the present day is rooted to something in the past. The way we get triggered or hurt or bothered by things,

It doesn't just appear from out of nowhere. It is connected to something in the past. And so if you have a previous experience, let's say in middle school, you had the... in middle school is just its own... yeah, it is a beast. And I didn't like it the first time I went through, and I am not enjoying it the second time. Let me tell you.

Dr. Shannon (25:35.394)
Zone Beast, yeah, definitely.

Dr. Shannon (25:45.358)
No, we're almost done with the first round, but we start the second round next school year.

Mazi Robinson (25:49.978)
Yeah. Oh, I know. Um, so let's say you had the horrible, unfortunate experience in middle school of you were the victim of some mean girls, or you had a friendship that the friend was very hot and cold, like all the all of a sudden one day you would get to school and she would just not be talking to you and you would ask what was wrong and she would say, you know, you know, and you would never know, you know, and then one day she would start talking to you again.

that leaves a mark, right? That leaves a scar. And so it makes then a lot of sense that when you become an adult, if you're at a play date or if you're at a mom's dinner and you see somebody you know pretty well, and for whatever reason, they seem a little cold and distant, your mind is just gonna start spinning of like, did I say something? Did I do something? Are we okay?

Dr. Shannon (26:21.046)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (26:41.907)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (26:49.338)
I'm a 46 year old woman. I feel uncomfortable asking that because I sound like a child. You know, I sound like a middle school girl. And it's all connected to that kind of original wound or that old wound of having been in a hot and cold relationship. And so then that kind of gets to kind of this bigger picture of our attachment style really impacts our adult friendships. And this is something that more people are starting to talk about, but we...

Dr. Shannon (26:54.572)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (26:57.928)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (27:05.461)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (27:10.542)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (27:17.734)
But it's so helpful if we can think about it in this way, because normally with attachment style, we think of it as it relates to parenting. And, you know, I want to create a secure attachment with my child, and so I'm going to do all these things. You know, we think of it as parenting and early parenting. But the fact of the matter is, we all have an attachment history, we all have an attachment style, and it impacts...

Dr. Shannon (27:25.581)
Right?

Dr. Shannon (27:31.748)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (27:44.586)
pretty much every area of our life. It impacts our marriages, it impacts our dating life, it impacts our friends, it impacts the people that we are drawn to, that we wanna be around. And so understanding your attachment style and understanding your attachment history can be very, very helpful in adult friendship if you tend to.

spin or worry or feel anxious or replay conversations or anything like that because you can then identify okay this is my attachment stuff let me get further curious you know if did this really happen or is this old are these old wounds getting poked um right now

Dr. Shannon (28:27.682)
That's huge. That whole like, did this happen or is that's my perception of what's happening? You know, and that's a huge one, I think, in motherhood with dealing with those friendships in... Then you get kids that are older, you're helping them navigate friendships. And I'm like, wait a minute. I still have some healing to do. It's really hard to heal everybody at the same time. But there's...

Mazi Robinson (28:33.122)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (28:46.326)
No? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (28:55.582)
Yeah, it's, um, understand I was fascinated when you talked about that attachment style and how it pertained to relationships. I was very much like, oh, this is how it pertains to parenting, but I guess not really looking at it more of like, yes, spousal relationships, but also the friendships. Um, cause it, I mean, we are community driven beings. I mean, that's why solitary confinement is used as, as torture and that type of thing. So it's like, we're

Mazi Robinson (29:15.086)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (29:23.81)
We want to be in that community, but yet it takes some effort, I think, in that. And then when you see those things crop up and it's like, oh, this was a wound, then it's hard. It's like, okay, now I've got to put in the work to heal this, to figure this out. You know, there's a, I don't know. It's goodness to it, but there's a process.

Mazi Robinson (29:45.774)
There is a process and it is recognizing that I may have an attachment style, but that is not on my tombstone. Like our attachment styles can change and evolve. We can heal attachment wounds, but we have to be aware of them to begin with, you know? And so...

Dr. Shannon (30:03.259)
Uh-huh.

Mazi Robinson (30:06.218)
I don't know if it would be helpful to just kind of run through them real quick, but you kind of have three basic ones. There's a lot. If you Google attachment style, you'll find, find a ton. And some people break it down into more categories of attachment style, but the three basic ones, we have secure attachment. And so secure attachment is kind of like what we all want to be. It's, we feel securely attached. We feel worthy of love and belonging.

Dr. Shannon (30:09.496)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (30:27.788)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (30:35.198)
We give people the benefit of the doubt. We assume people love us. We assume people want to be in relationship with us. Usually people with secure attachment styles have pretty peaceful relationships. There's not a lot of drama because there's not a lot of negative assumption going on. People with...

secure attachment styles usually are pretty good at making and maintaining friendships. And so then there's anxious attachment. And if we have an anxious attachment style, we have a fear of being rejected, left, or being abandoned. And so because of that fear of being rejected, left, or being abandoned, we then can feel very anxious about our relationships.

Dr. Shannon (31:29.274)
I feel like I need a sweatshirt that says that. Like, you know, please be kind. I have anxious attachment style. Yes. Yeah, handle with care.

Mazi Robinson (31:35.528)
Yeah, that's right. Like and or with and we'll tend to worry, we'll tend to ruminate, we read into things, we negatively assume like if somebody's quiet, they're mad at me. If somebody doesn't return a text message, they're mad at me. They don't like me, you know, like right, exactly. We do a lot of replaying on what we did, what we said.

Dr. Shannon (31:46.09)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (31:50.678)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (31:54.766)
What did I say? What did I do? Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (32:02.194)
Um, they're, like I said, there's kind of that neg that instant negative assumption that, oh, somebody's mad or they don't want to be friends with me or they're going to leave me, um, or that sort of thing. And so the, the real unfortunate thing about anxious attachment is it creates a lot of, um, chaos in, in our relationships because we don't have that.

We struggle to have that sense of object permanence, if you will, that sense of just because someone didn't respond to my text doesn't mean that the relationship is over. We struggle to hold on to that truth of someone didn't respond to my text, they are still in my life. Again, going back to that idea of object permanence with kids as they develop, you take away the toy and they think it's gone, right?

Dr. Shannon (32:35.747)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (32:51.367)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (32:56.599)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (32:59.666)
And so, so yes, so that's anxious attachment. And then avoidant attachment, if we have an avoidant attachment style, we also fear being rejected, left, abandoned, but how we address that fear is we're gonna cut and run before you can cut and run. So yeah. Yes, and then there is disorganized, which is...

Dr. Shannon (33:20.614)
Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Can you be multiple? I think maybe that's why I'm disorganized.

Mazi Robinson (33:29.278)
Don't just avoid it. Attachment and so with the avoidant attachment those individuals Usually don't do vulnerability They are pretty guarded. It takes a long time to get to know someone who is avoided because they kind of just Live relationally, right? Because you're gonna hurt me or you're gonna leave me. So I am just going to keep you at arm's length

Dr. Shannon (33:44.77)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (33:48.938)
I don't want to let you in. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Mazi Robinson (33:56.542)
individuals with avoidant attachment have negative assumptions in that they're always suspicious like Why what is your ulterior motive for why do you want to get together for lunch? Why do you want to hang out like what are you after? And so they negatively assume in a different way So it's very interesting and you can have different attachment styles with different people in your life Yeah

Dr. Shannon (34:09.12)
Ah.

Dr. Shannon (34:20.79)
people. That's what I was about to ask too. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (34:25.466)
There may be some relationships and this is something that just in recent months, especially when we were doing that gathering and I was spending a lot of time kind of reading and thinking about friendship, it was interesting for me to think about the friends that I am securely attached to. Like for me, people not responding to my text is like a big thing and I have to do a lot of work around not spinning about that.

Dr. Shannon (34:49.889)
Uh-huh.

Mazi Robinson (34:50.186)
But there are certain friends that they don't respond to my text in the time that I think they should and it doesn't bother me at all. I know that they'll eventually respond or they were too busy. Like I don't get stirred up about it at all. But then there are other people in my life that when they don't respond to my text, oh, I'm like a spinning top.

Dr. Shannon (34:54.906)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (35:05.268)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (35:12.066)
Then you start ruminating. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (35:14.078)
And I just been on all the worst case scenarios. I said something wrong, I did something wrong, they're mad at me, they never liked me to begin with. I mean, I write all sorts of negative stories. And so it was really interesting for me to go, what is the difference maker in those relationships? Is it something about the relationship, the other person, or is it something within me? And I think when we kind of chase that rabbit, we'll find that the...

Dr. Shannon (35:24.41)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (35:43.458)
there are answers to both of those questions. That sometimes it is, that is my stuff, that person's not being avoidant or whatever, and that's my stuff I need to work on, my anxious attachment. And then other times it's like, no, this person is a little gamey. They are a little chaotic in themselves, and I'm picking up on something that perhaps I need to listen to.

Dr. Shannon (35:56.194)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (36:12.17)
Yeah, so is it more of that's interesting too like yeah, is this a me thing or Is my intuition in my gut trying to tell me no, this may not be the best relationship for you This is a different tier here You gotta move them to a different tier I Love that now Let's see. There's a little bit in there with our

Mazi Robinson (36:26.03)
There you go. Yeah, you got to move them to a different tier.

Dr. Shannon (36:38.41)
I want to cover a little bit of expectations. And anytime I think of the word expectations, my brain automatically goes to Brene Brown. And so, and just kind of, if I look back on my life, I think a lot of the trouble that I might ruminate with or create in my own head has to do with the expectations that I had, whether...

Mazi Robinson (36:42.54)
Mm.

Dr. Shannon (37:02.078)
expectations of this is what tier you were at and this is how I was with you and we're not we weren't at the same tier so that can be an issue or just expectations of okay well I thought I was giving this and I was expecting this in return so um maybe chat a little bit about expectations but maybe managing them or um what we can do to help that be a little bit better.

Mazi Robinson (37:26.438)
Oh yes, expectations are big in friendship, and especially when we're not aware of our expectations.

Dr. Shannon (37:35.934)
That's always fun when you get slapped in the face with your expectation. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (37:41.546)
right. And you know, so often, I do feel like for a lot of us, with friendship in particular, unless we are kind of into personal growth and development, we aren't fully aware of the expectations we have until they have not been met. And then we're aware of the hurt and the anger that we feel. And so again, I think with a lot of this, it is just beneficial to

Dr. Shannon (37:57.69)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (38:01.922)
Exactly. That is exactly it. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (38:09.954)
to sit with yourself and when you're driving in the car, you know, like what are my expectations of friendship? What are my expectations of specific friendships? And is that realistic given my past experience with this person, given their present day context, is it realistic to...

Is it realistic for me to think that Betty Boo is going to be able to instantly reply to my text all throughout the day? No, that's not realistic for Betty Boo's life and schedule and where Betty Boo is in life. And so then that is my job to manage my expectations of, of the, the friendship. Um, and then there are certainly, um, instances where, no, that is a realistic expectation.

Dr. Shannon (38:48.231)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (39:04.674)
and that expectation isn't being met in that friendship. And so then that opens the door of, well, then do I bring this up in the friendship or do I not? And I think that's a case of, going back to Brene Brown, you share with friendships who've earned the right to hear, you share your hurts with friendships that can bear the weight of the share and some friendships just don't.

Dr. Shannon (39:24.329)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (39:32.202)
have that depth and therefore it wouldn't be wise for many reasons to go, you know, you really hurt my feelings when you don't return my text messages. But in other friendships, that would be a very vulnerable bonding thing of like, oh gosh, I didn't realize that was a thing to you. I will do better on making on being conscious of that. So yes, those expectations and knowing when they're realistic, given your past experience with a friend, their present day,

context, your present day context is really, really helpful. And then, you know, there, there may come a point where you have to surrender some expectations and that doesn't mean surrendering expectations doesn't mean tolerating mistreatment. It's recognizing, like, let's say you have a friend y'all been friends for a long time. She is always 15 minutes late to dinner. Always, always. I mean, always.

Cause she's just always late everywhere. And so you can decide, is it really important for us to have dinner start at the time of the reservation or whatever, or do I need to surrender that expectation of her being on time and just recognize she's going to be 15 minutes late, I'll bring my phone or a book and, and we'll move forward, you know, does that kind of make sense what I'm saying there of yeah.

Dr. Shannon (40:31.608)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (40:56.206)
Mm-hmm. Definitely. Yeah. I think it's worth it though if something does come up with those, or when you realize it was the thoughts and feelings and emotions that you're having based on a friendship interaction, if you look at it, well, maybe I was expecting something. Or even if it just comes like, I wasn't expecting that, then it's like, okay, maybe dig a little bit deeper into does that...

Mazi Robinson (40:58.872)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (41:24.39)
hit on an attachment style that you have, like you thought you were secure, maybe you weren't secure. And then it can open up even more into, okay, well, why do I have that attachment style or that what you even said earlier, the past takes you back to like middle school aspect of things. And I know I have dear friends that I've been able to chat with about like my reactions to things and we've been able to cycle through. I mean, obviously outside of a licensed therapist, which I highly recommend. But...

But that gives you the vulnerability with other friendships too to go through that and kind of go through, okay, well, this is the root cause or this is where, you know, that started. So I guess it's just a prep for moms listening to this. Whatever stage you're in, you're going to have, you might have something come up with your expectations that you just have to manage.

Mazi Robinson (42:13.91)
Yes, exactly. And getting curious about them rather than taking the hurt, disappointment, and frustration you feel as fact is really, really helpful. I think it's just so curious. I think it's so important, so valuable to get curious about our expect- even our expectations like in our romantic relationships with our partners, you know.

Did I verbalize the expectation or was I expecting the person to mind read me? And again, and again, was it realistic given my past experience and the present context, was that realistic? And what deeper need perhaps is that expectation pulling on? And maybe that's the, that's the need I need.

Dr. Shannon (42:43.09)
Yes, that's very, very important. Yes.

Mazi Robinson (43:02.85)
to look at or verbalize or whatever, expectations are really layered. And if we can get curious about them, admit them to ourselves, it opens a door of self-awareness that can be really, really beneficial in our relationships.

Dr. Shannon (43:16.758)
Yes. Yeah. There's nothing quite like, I feel like parenthood or friendships to really, are those like, yeah, those relationships, which I mean, parenthood is a relationship to really open your eyes up to, oh, maybe I can get some work done here on me. Open your eyes up there. You had said in that gatherings.

Mazi Robinson (43:34.482)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (43:46.974)
event that you did and you did talk about you can change the attachment styles. I had written all of these little notes down. But I think you had defined friendship as someone who bears witness to our life. Or I remember writing that down and I was like, that's such a pretty... Maybe I should have opened the show with that to just say like, this is why these relationships are worth it and important. And like we had already said, you were not...

Mazi Robinson (44:03.84)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (44:11.512)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (44:15.61)
created to be solitary beings. So I guess all of this to say too, like it is worth the work that goes into fostering these friendships. So now we run into the aspect of like, we're all tired, everyone's busy. I feel like at this point, I'm like, I don't, oh, I was busy, but I don't even say that anymore. Cause like, we're all, we're all busy. I don't even care what stage of motherhood you're at. You can be an empty nester and you're still busy. It's just a lot going on.

Mazi Robinson (44:21.998)
this.

Mazi Robinson (44:31.87)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (44:35.79)
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon (44:45.514)
So how, because we want these friendships, these people to bear witness to our life, how, what's, I don't know, I don't wanna say like, how do we find the time for friends, but what, there's a struggle there. So what do we do with that and how, I guess, carving out that time and scheduling it outside of that, but what can we do?

Mazi Robinson (45:09.014)
Yeah, and that's again going back to what we've just something we've discussed before That's where I think these tier just kind of this tier mindset can be really helpful because yes There are friendships that we can go Years without seeing someone we can go months without talking to them Only the occasional exchange of a meme and then we see them and we pick right back up where we left off

And I have a friend like that. She's a friend from college. She lives in New York. We rarely see each other. We don't talk on the phone because I don't really like to talk on the phone. We exchange text messages here and there. But when I do see her, it is the absolute best. And literally I pick her up from the airport, she gets in the car and we start talking like we had just been talking for two hours. But that type of...

of interaction, I really think it only exists when you've had a thick historical foundation. And she and I went to college for four years together at a very formative time in our lives. And you know what I'm saying? So to that end of what I'm saying is, is in the present day, we do have to invest. You know, the friendship

Dr. Shannon (46:12.334)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (46:22.07)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (46:33.174)
that we can leave on the back burner and still expect it to be burning, those are rare. And so we do have to invest in our friendships, which means that as the older we get and the busier we get, and we have more responsibilities, we do have to make choices on who we're going to invest in. And investing does not mean returning every single text message, although that is my love language,

Dr. Shannon (47:01.804)
According to Maisie, you need to know.

Mazi Robinson (47:05.23)
Um, but it is recognizing I need to return some, you know, and I at least need to like thumbs up occasionally. Right. And it does mean that you do have to show up at dinners, you know, um, there's a group of moms at my son's school that I have really been wanting to get to know.

Dr. Shannon (47:11.692)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (47:15.998)
Yeah, give me the thumbs up. That's all we need.

Mazi Robinson (47:30.802)
over the past couple of years and we try to do dinner once a month or once every other month and there are some nights where I'm just like, oh, I'm so tired. I'm like, no, if I want to get to know these women, I have to show up. And so it is recognizing I cannot invest in everything, but I'm going to choose kind of three people, three groups that I'm going to invest in and I'm going to do my best to show up and to participate and to reciprocate.

Dr. Shannon (47:43.547)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (47:59.462)
in those relationships because

we aren't created to live in a vacuum. And yes, we can, we can go it alone for a little bit. But there's wear and tear on that. And, you know, just as you can drive your car when you need to change the oil, you can't drive it very long, and it's not good for the car, you know, and, you know, we can go it alone and

Our lives can be filled with all the schedules and the busyness, but eventually we do need those relationships, they're oxygen for our heart. We do need those witnesses to our lives. And we need to be witnesses to other people's lives. And so I think it's just being very intentional of how you're going to invest that limited commodity of your time and energy.

Dr. Shannon (48:53.802)
I love that you said the word intentional though, because I think that's the root and the heart of it as far as it's not just by chance that you're going to get together and do things. It really does take that planning. And maybe, yes, it takes. In six months, I see so many funny reels on that. In fact, my friend sent that to me today because she was like, are you available on the 16th? I was like, no. And then it's like back and forth. And they're like, okay, so two years we're going to...

Mazi Robinson (49:03.788)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (49:22.906)
go to dinner.

Mazi Robinson (49:25.442)
That's right. That's right. And that's another big difference that I don't think we're prepared for as we move into adulthood and into middle age is that friendships don't necessarily happen by chance anymore. You know, when we are children and adolescents and even in college, friendships happened by chance because you were literally around the same people all the time. So there is geographic proximity.

you were all relatively doing the same thing. Like everybody was taking algebra and world history and you know, and so then there was a lot of common ground. And so friendships were easy to make. Now maybe not all of them were great, but and you had a lot more free time when you were a kid and in college. Like when I think about all of the free time I had in college, like I'm just like, that's insane. And I thought I was busy. Like what?

Dr. Shannon (50:00.314)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (50:16.378)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Dr. Shannon (50:21.339)
I know.

Mazi Robinson (50:22.086)
in the world, but you had a lot of time free time to hang out. And so friendships were just easier. You didn't have to be intentional. And so then as we get older, having to build this intentionality muscle, it can be like, wait, what? No, it shouldn't be like this. But it is like this. It is the evolution of relationships in our lives. The maturity.

Dr. Shannon (50:29.373)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (50:40.633)
Mm-hmm.

And then again, throwing, being mature, and then throwing in that transition into motherhood. And so now you've got that identity shift and now it's also like, oh, okay, being intentional. It's almost like you have to be more intentional about all the little areas of your life, all those little identity aspects. You know?

Mazi Robinson (51:05.822)
Yeah, and I would say this again, going back to our tier thing, but not everything can be important. So there is a prioritizing and there's a prioritizing of relationships. There's a prioritizing of responsibilities. Like you cannot give 100% to everything. You have 100% to give. And so something's going to get 3%. And

Dr. Shannon (51:12.822)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (51:26.465)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (51:31.562)
And it may not always be like that. So even, and I think that's a big thing for moms to understand too, the seasons of motherhood is it's like exercise and all of that. It comes and goes. It's up and down. You have more time here. You don't have time here. They sleep well. They don't sleep well, you know that. So it changes that level of what you can only do 3% here, but that's just for now. You know, don't beat yourself up on that. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (51:54.738)
Exactly. I think one of the most helpful things we can remember when we are feeling stressed and overwhelmed, particularly as mothers, is that life is seasonal and everything is a season and this will not last forever and you will be able to move into another season. And exactly what you're saying, what gets 3% now, you may be able to give 25% in next year.

But everything is seasonal. And so I think that's just a wonderful mindset to hold onto when we're feeling like we're treading water. This will not last forever. And it's not the Carpe Diem like babies won't keep. It's not that mindset. It's this is seasonal. And so what I'm having to sacrifice now, I'm not gonna have to sacrifice in the same way in a different season because it's gonna be a different time structure and responsibility structure in a different season.

Dr. Shannon (52:33.535)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (52:48.73)
Mm-hmm. And it's neat to watch my friends and my patients go through those things too. It's really neat to see. I've got some that, you know, kids are, all the kids are finally in a school building, you know, once they get to a certain age. So now it's like, oh, maybe I can go back to school and do something now. So it's like, I don't know, it's really neat to see those, to see that kind of happen for someone.

Mazi Robinson (52:55.822)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (53:04.054)
with.

Mazi Robinson (53:15.146)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh huh.

Dr. Shannon (53:18.13)
Okay, so that post that you made back March 2023, the five takeaways from the gathering on friendship. So the first one was that friendship and adulthood is challenging for multiple reasons. Our past friendships influence our present day friendships. And we chatted about that. Friendship breakups and loss are true grief.

back to it. Taking initiative is key in making and sustaining friendships. That was a little bit of the being intentional with things. And I know for that, that's always the, you know, check on your strong friends type of thing in my head. Like check on those people that seem they have all their stuff together. It's like, well, they sometimes are the ones that like need the most in that friendship aspect of things, you know, they might be.

Mazi Robinson (53:36.587)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (54:02.338)
juggling a little bit there. And then you had, we must believe we are likable and deserving of connection. And so I really, I know I loved all of those, all of those aspects. Now we do know that there, just as we have seasons of motherhood, there's going to be seasons of friendships as well too. And so you had, you had mentioned in that, that gathering, that friendship breakups and loss are true grief. So maybe we can.

speak a little bit about, I guess, handling that.

Mazi Robinson (54:36.79)
Yeah, this is something I've become just a real passion topic for me in recent months and years because it is something we never talk about. We talk about the grief and loss of a dating relationship, of a marriage, of someone passing, but for whatever reason, a friendship fading or a friendship breakup,

we just never discuss like it's not supposed to impact us. And the reality like we're just supposed to move on. And but the reality is that is such genuine, painful grief. And, you know, and for a lot of friendship, breakups and fades, particularly friendship fades, you don't really know what happened.

Dr. Shannon (55:28.596)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (55:29.222)
It's just all of a sudden, you're not as close. All of a sudden, you're not talking. All of a sudden, you're not hanging out. And you're really not sure. And so with our friendship fades and breakups, it's so easy to fall into the spiral of rumination. And you just, you lay awake at night and you replay the last conversation. You replay the last time you hung out. You replay the history of the friendship. And what about this? What about that? And so often,

We don't talk about friendship fades and breakups with really anyone. So we are grieving and hurting and suffering truly alone. And we don't talk about for a lot of reasons. One, we may have mutual friends, you know, and so we don't want to gossip and be the one, you know, who's dogging another person to. You may feel embarrassed. Like. I'm this old and someone doesn't want to be friends with me. Like.

Dr. Shannon (56:02.459)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (56:24.393)
Uh huh.

Mazi Robinson (56:25.93)
What does that say about me? And so you don't want to share because maybe you feel some shame or some embarrassment and then maybe like, well, if I, if I do share what happened, maybe there, if I share with Jane, Jane's going to be like, well, Maisie, you shouldn't have done that. And, and then I don't know then what to do, you know? And, and so we, we suffer in silence with this loss and it is true, true loss. And one of the things that, um, that I've

Dr. Shannon (56:27.534)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (56:54.774)
kind of discovered and as I've talked with people about it, there are a few things that we can do when we're experiencing a friendship fade or a friendship breakup. It is very important to talk about it with someone. And this is where a counselor can be very helpful or another friend who's maybe not in that same social circle.

And I would say be very mindful how you talk about it. In that, talk about your feelings of sadness, your feelings of confusion. Don't get spun up in rehashing the details because when we rehash the details, the events, that leads to rumination and we're literally like a duck swimming in a pond. It doesn't get us to peace and freedom. But if we can talk about our heart,

Dr. Shannon (57:30.49)
Hmm.

Mazi Robinson (57:45.382)
I feel so sad. I don't understand. It brings up when I was in eighth grade and you know, Evelyn stopped talking to me and I had no one to sit with at lunch, you know, really like digging deep of like this is impacting me. Again, let me get curious about all the things that it's touching on and let me share it with another person. I also think it's important.

Dr. Shannon (57:59.848)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (58:12.89)
with ourselves to just name this is grief. Like the reason that I'm ruminating, the reason that I may be swimming in some regret, the reason that I'm so sad, the reason that I'm having trouble focusing, the reason I may be snippy with my family is that I'm grieving. And all of these are normal symptoms of grief and I've lost something that was really important to me. And then I think the third thing is it's really important to

Dr. Shannon (58:16.008)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (58:40.37)
then surround ourselves with people we feel safe with. You know, when we've got kind of a wound right here, we wanna be, we wanna then spend some time with people who are gonna be gentle with the wound, you know, the inclination for some of us might be to just kind of withdraw from everything because we're so hurt by the friendship loss, but it's really important to

Dr. Shannon (59:04.218)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (59:10.094)
to put yourself in the circles, in the paths of people that you trust that are safe, because it reminds your spirit, when you're, if you may be struggling, you know, particularly if we struggle with anxious attachment, a friendship fate is going to decimate our worth. We're, we're going to like, I'm not worthy of love. I'm unlovable. Like it just slashes it. And so if you have an anxious attachment style to then

Put yourself in the center of friends who do know you and who do love you. It helps you regain that footing of, okay, no, I am lovable. I am loved. Does that make sense kind of there?

Dr. Shannon (59:51.062)
Mm-hmm, definitely. No, but that's why I'm just why I was glad you had it listed on there because this is a part of life and I think you know within that motherhood aspect of things that you will have things that come and go as it pertains to friendships whether it fades or

And I mean, I think COVID brought about a little bit of some of the friendship because it was like, oh, I didn't realize we were on complete different spectrums of whatever was going on in the world. Again, that doesn't mean that you can't be friends, but if it was something enough that was big enough, then you have that, you know, mechanism of injury, speaking from my work standpoint. But you have that reasoning there. You're going to I don't know, you're going to navigate those things. And if you don't.

Mazi Robinson (01:00:16.993)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (01:00:42.122)
your kids are gonna navigate those things. So then you're gonna have to navigate it anyways. So.

Mazi Robinson (01:00:48.266)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or like as your kids age and become teenagers, people end up having very different parenting styles that previously were very much aligned in how they raise their kids. And that can lead to friendship fades. And that's painful on many levels. But, but yeah, I totally agree with you. COVID really opened the door to a lot of friendship fades for a lot of reasons. And

Dr. Shannon (01:00:59.587)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:01:05.757)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:01:15.118)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (01:01:17.002)
It's really been interesting just in my practice. I've been practicing for 17 years. So I feel like, you know, I can kind of, I've been around long enough to see trends and so forth. And prior to COVID, it was only occasionally that people would come in and talk about friendship fades and breakups or friendship in general. But since COVID, that has been such a common topic. It's really been interesting to see that. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (01:01:25.9)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:01:42.142)
Hmm, that is interesting. I know to kind of see how that impacts how it impacts our friendships Um, okay, so let's um, okay. So you said you've been you've been doing this work for 17 years now I know I didn't even get into like oh, how'd you get started? As a licensed professional counselor, um, but what let's chat about what you do at

Mazi Robinson (01:01:49.687)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (01:01:59.883)
No.

Dr. Shannon (01:02:06.798)
cultivate and the services that you offer and I guess just some of the things that you see in The women and the mothers that you work with so that way if someone hears something they're like, oh Maybe this I could benefit from those services

Mazi Robinson (01:02:21.446)
Oh yes, I would love to tell you about Cultivate. I like to think of Cultivate as my third child. So I have been practicing, I've been practicing therapist for 17 years. I started Cultivate in 2017. And...

Dr. Shannon (01:02:28.234)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (01:02:41.538)
Cultivate really was born out of this question that I was starting to ponder of, is there a way to encourage women in both their emotional and spiritual health? I felt like at that time, and really the idea for Cultivate came to me in 2014. It just took me three years to kind of get the courage to bring it to life. But at the time in 2014, I was just noticing that women seemed really hungry

Dr. Shannon (01:03:02.129)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (01:03:11.362)
truth around emotional and spiritual health, not like the cookie cutter bumper sticker, you know, platitudes, but just a real searching, a real thirst for knowledge. And I felt like, you know, there are obviously people out there doing great things with emotional health and obviously church and religious organizations, you know, with spiritual health, but I didn't see anyone doing both, or at least the way that I thought it should be done. And so for the

Dr. Shannon (01:03:35.771)
Yeah!

Mazi Robinson (01:03:39.634)
Next three years, I really brainstormed on what that would look like, how we could serve the women of Atlanta. And so Cultivate kind of went through lots of different iterations in my mind. At one time, I thought it could be an online network to find counselors in the city. I thought it could be retreats, quarterly workshops, book clubs, I mean, just lots of different ideas. And so then I finally settled that it would be a gathering for women.

And so, and I reached out to a couple of friends of mine, kind of shared the vision of what these gatherings could look like. And so in 2017, we held our first gathering and it kind of defied all hopes and dreams of prayers of what it might be. We had hoped that 35 women would come and 125 women came. And it was just, you know, kind of just such an abundant answer to a lot of

Dr. Shannon (01:04:33.654)
Oh wow.

Mazi Robinson (01:04:39.182)
prayer and daydreaming for three years. And so from there, we decided to keep holding the gatherings. We felt like, okay, this is meeting a need in our community. And so we continued to hold the gatherings and the gatherings are always centered around a topic that hits on both emotional and spiritual health. We've held nights on, you know, how to address anxiety, friendship, how do we heal? What would you tell your younger self, et cetera, et cetera, things like that.

Dr. Shannon (01:04:39.738)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (01:05:08.766)
And then in 2018, the next year, I started thinking, well, you know, where are we going with Cultivate? I'm tend to be overly goal oriented. I always got to know where I'm going. And so I was like, well, where are we going with this? Now that we've started this, where are we going? Yeah, exactly. Is it to just get more people in the door? You know, what, what's the goal here? And so then one day it hit me Cultivate Counseling. And it is amazing because I.

Dr. Shannon (01:05:18.901)
Yeah.

Yeah, now that we're here, now where are we going? Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (01:05:36.606)
was a practicing therapist with a practice that I had never thought of opening a counseling center with Cultivate, just of all the ideas I'd had. It was separate. It was totally separate in my mind. And so in 2018, we opened Cultivate Counseling. And so Cultivate Counseling now has eight therapists, including myself on staff. We specialize in working with women and couples.

Dr. Shannon (01:05:46.686)
It was separate to you instead of... Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (01:06:06.434)
Our mission is to encourage women to cultivate joy, courage, and freedom in their lives as they pursue emotional, relational, and spiritual health. One of our distinctives at Cultivate is that we offer affordable counseling. And so what that means is that our counseling fees are just a little bit lower than Atlanta in-town counseling fees. We believe that we believe in accessibility. We believe everyone should have access to excellent.

mental health counseling and should have the opportunity to live free of their hurts and wounds and to step into the life they were created to live. At Cultivate Counseling all of our therapists specialize in different areas so we have therapists that specialize in addiction and recovery, anxiety, depression. We have a perinatal mood disorder specialist on staff who's wonderful.

grief and loss, divorce recovery, emotional abuse, narcissistic abuse, toxic relationships. We all work with self-worth, self-esteem challenges, relationship concerns, and life stage transitions. We have individuals who work with professional executive women on work-life balance.

Dr. Shannon (01:07:09.591)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:07:24.429)
Mm-hmm.

Mazi Robinson (01:07:24.986)
um midlife transition basically our goal is to be able to walk with a woman throughout her adult lifespan through all the transitions that she may experience from entering college to young adulthood to marriage motherhood midlife empty nest um retirement etc and we are located in buck kit and um yeah so that's a little bit about and we still hold our gatherings we just had our

Dr. Shannon (01:07:33.13)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:07:50.662)
I was going to say, I wanted you to ask, do you still hold your gatherings? Because I think you do. Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (01:07:53.77)
We do. We just had our holiday gathering in November and that was lovely and so fun and got us all ready for the holidays. And we will hold another, our next gathering sometime in 2024. I just, we haven't set the date yet.

Dr. Shannon (01:07:57.782)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (01:08:07.934)
Yeah, I love it. Now you also send out newsletters because I get yours. It's thoughts for Thursday emails. I highly recommend going to her the website I'm gonna put your website in the link to the show notes because that's really good and like I said, I'm gonna link do you have links on your website to the other the recordings of the other gatherings or Is that something you do regularly?

Mazi Robinson (01:08:16.511)
Oh, thank you.

Mazi Robinson (01:08:27.582)
Yes. So if you go to the gatherings page on our CultivateAtlanta.com website and you scroll down, that's where I have the links to some of the previous gatherings and that friendship gathering is there.

Dr. Shannon (01:08:45.538)
Yeah, because I'm going to put that link to the friendship one because it was, again, I didn't want this episode to be like, oh, let's just redo what you guys talked about in that. So hopefully we hit on enough different stuff, but it was really, really good. So I love, love the services that you provide. I love the information that you put out because it definitely, I know it was speaking to me, so I know that it's speaking to a lot of other moms as far as it pertains to like identity and...

Mazi Robinson (01:08:52.392)
Oh.

Mazi Robinson (01:08:58.903)
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon (01:09:16.607)
all the unexpected things that come along with motherhood. You're like, I didn't know I was gonna need help with this. So yeah, I'm so, so excited. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Like I said, yes. And then I'm gonna put all the links to things in the show notes so people can reach out to you. And again, thank you so much.

Mazi Robinson (01:09:20.182)
Yeah.

Mazi Robinson (01:09:28.63)
Thank you so much for having me.

Mazi Robinson (01:09:38.254)
Thank you, bye.