Ep 79: Embracing the Imperfections of Motherhood - turning anxiety into awakening with Dr. Meghan Toups, LPC

Motherhood is a journey, not only of learning and discovering our new baby, but also learning and discovering what it means to be a mother.  And how society and culture views motherhood can impact how we experience it.  It’s easy to “should” on yourself as a new mom.  To feel anxious, guilty, pressured, and selfless.  So what can you do if you resonate with those feelings?  Holistic psychologist and licensed professional counselor, Dr. Meghan Toups joins us on the show today as we dive deep into motherhood.  
We chat about:

What anxiety looks like in motherhood

How anxiety can change in motherhood as our children grow

How our society and culture shape our view of motherhood

Are symptoms messengers of the body inviting us to dig deeper

What tools she goes over with moms to help turn anxiety into an awakening 

Dr. Meghan shares about her own motherhood and wellness journey, which led her to completing her PhD in Psychology and becoming a holistic health coach.  It’s insightful and inspiring to hear other healthcare professionals speak of their own journey and how they use their path to help others.  She also just recently hosted her first holistic wellness women’s retreat, and we chat a little about that too.  

Be sure to connect with her and reach out for support!

Dr. Meghan Toups - website

Dr. Meghan Toups - Instagram

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• 11:52 (Cont.) Ep 79: Embracing the Imperfections of Motherhood - turning anxiety into awakening with Dr. Meghan Toups, LPC

Transcript

Unknown 0:00

Hello, hello, this is the aligned birth Podcast. I'm Dr. Shane and one of the hosts of the show, and today is an interview day. So you know I get very, very excited about these and we have a very special guest on today. Today we have Dr. Megan tubes, who is a holistic psychologist and licensed professional counselor who helps women transform their anxiety into awakening. She has that on her website. I absolutely love it. It's a very big statement. And obviously it shows the importance of the work that she does. She offers guided meditations one on one sessions. She has an online course and community as well. She has certification in holistic health coach, and you know, I love doing these interviews on the show because a lot of the women and folks that we have on the show have a history and their own journey with their own health. And so it's kind of looking at how she used her health journey and to help women now. And so because she's very open in the bio on her website, and she talks about how she has dealt with intense anxiety and panic attacks. And gut health issues. And so she uses all of her clinical expertise or PhD in psychology and all of that smartness that she has, but then she also uses her real world real life experience in her own healing journey to work with mothers as well. She says part of becoming who we want to be is unbecoming. Who others wanted us to be and in turn returning towards our original state of wonder with the world. I wanted to bring Megan on the show today, partly to because I want the focus to be motherhood and how society wants us to present ourselves as mothers right. And one thing that stuck out to me on her website is that in her own journey, she began to explore how our society and culture impacts anxiety and women, particularly mothers. Why are mothers so anxious, guilty, pressured, selfless, what's going on here? And then she begins to say, Well, why did I also feel these things even though cognitively I knew better. So I'm so excited to have her on the show. Today. We're gonna talk about all the things all things motherhood. So welcome to the show. Dr. Megan

Unknown 2:17

how Thank you. It's so it's so interesting hearing

Unknown 2:23

everybody says that too, because I've always like listen, you sound so awesome, like, sounds great.

Unknown 2:30

I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Unknown 2:32

Of course. Now I consider you I consider you a friend but I also consider you a mentor as well as someone that I look up to who has lots of knowledge but I will say I'm sometimes confused as the knowledge to the knowledge that you have as far as what it means you know, like I even looking at your your pH I want you to go into like your PhD paper and your dissertation everything because it's like, I think it can be confusing but I also think it can be very awakening for women and women going through motherhood as well to to note some of the pressures that we had and what they're feeling is what they're feeling, you know, and you even talk about symptoms. I don't even want you to go into like your thoughts and views on symptoms. So gosh, Fred I don't know where you want to start today.

Unknown 3:20

Yeah, it can be confusing. Probably my work can be confusing and becoming a mother can be confusing all of it, right? Like, I know. Yes.

Unknown 3:30

Yeah. So where do you we're, what's a good starting point for you and kind of explaining what it is

Unknown 3:36

that you do? Yeah. So I'd say that my work as a therapist has evolved over the many I've been a therapist for almost 15 years, and I've always worked with women with women's issues, looking at how women can feel more empowered. And heal and looking at also how society and culture has really impacted maternal mental health and this, you know, just stigmatizing women for just having symptoms and being human. And so I returned after a long time of being away being a mother to get my PhD. And I thought I would do like holistic health and holistic wellness related to motherhood and gut health because that's really something that helped heal me on my journey after becoming a mother. But I was really introduced to some different feminist therapy theories and socio cultural theory and I started researching motherhood post World War Two and looking at how our identity has shifted since then, in so many ways and then guided by you know, socio political movements and, and ideologies. To help kind of shape or identity but, you know, of course, my journey started with becoming a mother 11, almost 12 years ago.

Unknown 4:55

I know and that's, you know, that's a very transformative thing. And I always it's important to mention, too, that like, you know, we have the cells of our children still in us, you know, as mothers and so not only is a new life brought into this world, but you have to think too, like you've started this new journey as well and it can be very overwhelming. You know, losing your identity and motherhood but wanting to embrace that identity and motherhood. I feel like that can be you can kind of feel pulled. Yeah, in those different directions.

Unknown 5:30

Yeah, and I think we all go into motherhood with some sort of expectation about who we think we're going to be, or who we think we should be. And I think a lot of that is informed by our own experience in having or not having for some people, a mother wanting to do things differently, or better or that same. So we kind of go in with this, this individual view, and that's really what I did. Thinking that it would be a brief like, this is totally going to be my thing, and I'm going to do it like, you know, like my mom did, and it's gonna be easy, and I've got this and it wasn't, it wasn't that way. You know, and I think we also go in with our own ideas about what we should be as a good mother and that's really what I've done a lot of my research on about you know, how we're being shaped into kind of going into motherhood thinking that we have to be this particular good, perfect mother. So gosh, I

Unknown 6:27

mean, that's coming up a lot lately. I think it's society as far as looking at like, what? Good, what is good, you know, good versus bad. And is it? I think society, too, sometimes wants to just put you in that box, right? And like, here's this box, and this is what it means to be a good mother and a good wife and a good whatever it is that you do whatever, you lose thoughts and beliefs. And then if you don't fit in the box, it's like, well, am I not good?

Unknown 6:52

Yeah, and it like lives in us. Like it's a very real thing. So, you know, I, I won't read out too much unless you want me to.

Unknown 7:01

But like, I wrote that down, and I put exclamation points because I was like, motherhood, post World War Two, like, that's a huge shift from then to now. It's huge. Yes. Let's keep out.

Unknown 7:12

Yeah. Well, so I think the background is helpful because I think women become mothers and they're like, Okay, this should be easy, and I should be this great mother and I should, you know, want to mother all the time and be selfless and all these things and, you know, why are we putting ourselves in this box of needing to be this particular type of way? And I think it does have its roots and it can help contextualize our anxiety and depressions and overwhelming and being a mother by looking at you know, you know, after the war and post, you know, post world war two women were told you, you know, well, first of all women had to go to the factories. And work while the men were at war, typically. And then men came back after the war and women couldn't work anymore. So they kind of pushed them back into the homes. Right. And so, this is also the advent of technology. You know, people started having televisions and shows like Leave It to Beaver came out where they depicted this perfect nuclear white family, with a mother at home who cooked and the father if he did cook was barbecuing. So, you know, this is like, really where technology and media start shaping our perception of what it is to be in a family and what it is to be a mother in a totally different way. And you know, it's really also the advent of hyper consumerism. So we're watching a TV and we're getting like commercials about oh, toasters and microwave ovens. Oh, yeah, we need this. So, honey, you go out and work more and I'll stay home and, you know, have my toaster and so that, so it's really like the shaping and you know, of course, then feminism comes in and in the 70s and 80s and 90s, and things shift, and then so today we're at this place where it's like, we have this ideology of being this great, perfect loving, selfless mother kind of 1950s 60s and then we have the feminist movement that says okay, no, you can work you can do at all you can do all these things, and into kind of, like our neoliberal ideology around like, you know, okay, we can do it all. We can have it all we can be our own. Brand and we can, you know, be the very best and, and, and kind of achieve this perfection and what it does, it's like the perfect soup for maternal mental health. Right, like, yeah, hazing and depression and like, No, we can't do it all and it's too much and like, you know, so it's kind of, it's, it's learning enough of this history, so we can say, okay, so this is why I'm feeling this way. Can I extricate myself can I pull myself out of it just a little bit, to find a tiny bit more freedom

Unknown 9:51

that but hearing that progression, it makes sense. You know, you see it and it's and it's the same thing with birth though, too. And so Rachel and I talk about this a lot on the show is our ideas behind birth, like, you know, going into have my children. I was like, Oh, you go to a hospital, you push on your back, you yell and scream because that's what you saw on TV and we're like that, that I need to like a bashing TV here now, but it forms those views. And if you don't have anybody else in your life speaking something different to you, you know, and saying, hey, it could be different than that's what kind of forms those views and then you have those expectations.

Unknown 10:30

Exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's not sometimes I'll sound kind of like I'm coming down hard on, you know, media or consumerism or whatever, but it's really just, it's understanding, it's understanding that these media exposure psychologically is impacting the way that we view ourselves. And so, you know, kind of Western thought is like, you know, we're this bounded, solo individual person, when in reality, we are social. We are formed through relationships and through our culture and through media and so you're right, like, we have these. We watch on TV, you lay in a hospital bed, you scream, you hold your baby, everyone's happy. And it doesn't work that way. They don't talk to us how, you know, there might be forceps or there might be, you know, trauma related to birth and there might be racial inequities and you know, all these reads different. You could have

Unknown 11:26

that homebirth like it could look completely different. Oh, my gosh, and it you know, and that's so my word of the year. I pick a word of the year of the year and it's been awareness for this year. And I think that's like what you're even saying here to again, it's not the bashing of media, but it's like that awareness of okay this is where where are these thoughts coming from right. So if we can first be aware, awareness precedes change. So then you can say, okay, how can I maybe not react this way or have these feelings or at least understanding where those feelings are coming from you know, because it sometimes it can feel like well, I don't even know where this came from.

Unknown 12:04

Yes. And I think for women in particular, you know, where we don't know where that feeling comes from. It's very easy to say there's something wrong with me, for you know, it's just my anxiety or my depression versus having this kind of bigger picture that helps you, you know, be a little bit more compassionate towards yourself and say, you know, it's not just my anxiety or just my depression. It's this whole context of where I'm living and how I'm living and how a lot of times mothers don't feel supported in their journey especially in becoming a mother, which I'm sure you've seen.

Unknown 12:38

Oh, yeah, I know. I mean, I feel it, I felt it. And I see it a lot too, you know, and it's, but that support looks different for everybody, as well. And so I think that you know, presents not necessarily a problem, but it's kind of like what one person needs may not be what you need, but just having certain words and vocabulary like therapist in your vocabulary to know okay, this is an option,

Unknown 13:06

you know, yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to, to remember I mean, I think can I share a little bit about Liam, my son was born with bilateral clubfeet. And they didn't know it. And so, you know, I gave birth to Liam, and it was it was, it was kind of a traumatic moment to see your child knowing he would need surgery and a lot of care and I can remember just getting in such a fog and like, I don't even know how to ask for help. I don't know what to do. And you know, at that, at that point, I've seen some doctor to try to be compassionate, but it was hard when you have a crying mother who's leaking milk and sobbing over her baby having to go to the hospital and, you know, get the you know, the treatment for the club fee. And, you know, it's just, it's a lot and it's hard to see beyond the fog, especially when something you know, might be part of your birth story that that you weren't expecting. I think those expectations are a really big piece of where we can fall into having some symptoms of anxiety and depression and just overwhelm in general.

Unknown 14:12

I know I've noticed that with myself though too. Like when I if I have these expectations, okay, this is how the day is gonna go because I'm gonna get this done. This done, kids are gonna go here I'm going to move and you'll all these moving parts and pieces. And if everybody just Just listen to me, and that's what I say, it'll all go well, no, that's not life. So then it's, you know, someone's having a meltdown over here. We're late over here, and it can like creep in and then you're like, oh my gosh, the days that is ruined. That can't be just me, right?

Unknown 14:45

Oh my gosh, no, and it's and I think in those moments, it helps me at least to say, you know, Wow, am I trying to do too much am I putting all these expectations because you know it culturally productivity and go go bonus is really a virtue. And so how am I playing into that where maybe I could scale back a little bit. So I've learned to kind of have these minute conversations with myself. Sometimes it doesn't always work. Sometimes I just like scream and you know, like, just too much of course. But sometimes, sometimes I can have this kind of self awareness and self reflexivity to be like, Alright, what's happening here? Where can I scale back? Where am I playing into this narrative that doesn't really fit in my experience, but it's not perfect.

Unknown 15:34

Never, ever, ever, ever. I know. Now, in you, I don't know how deep you want to go into this too, because I was making notes about Liam, and his birth and your birth story with him, but you talk openly to about you were a psychologist, like you had your Matrin psychology before you had children, right? And then your husband and you kind of opened this wellness center and then you had your children and then you suffered from anxiety and panic attacks. So where do you think, you know, where did that come from? Are the work that you've done with that on your on yourself? And on your end?

Unknown 16:20

Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah, so I had my master's before. I had kids and I was always really like, holistically minded and health minded and yeah, Vijay and I started a company together. We were doing Holistic Health. And then I had my daughter Lily Kate first and that was it. That was kind of a traumatic moment. You know, they rushed me to the hospital and they, you know, they thought something was wrong with her and then they use forceps and was a long labor and and I have really bad has pardoned anxiety after my first birth. And so that was a huge challenge and a huge surprise, right? Because it's like, okay, this is my job. Like I specialize in anxiety with women, right? So. Yeah, and so I don't think I was obviously fully prepared to become a mother like no one is. And it's like, I love being a mom. I love my kid. I live my life but like I'm really anxious and I'm not sleeping and I don't really know what I'm doing. And I, you know, just all this kind of chaos. And so I took a break from counseling, and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna go get my holistic health coaching certification. That's what I'm gonna do because I was always a doer. So I'm like, Okay, have anxiety. gotta figure this out. Got it. So I went got my certification when she was really little. And then I got pregnant again and had Liam and it all kind of continued in swirled, especially with his health issues. So, you know, after that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I just need help with this. I need to figure out how to do this. Who's the you know, and so, I went to integrative MD and I was like, Okay, this is clearly I need some support, telling me what to do. Always focus on doing like, what can I do? Better? How can I be, you know, and so, you know, I can remember her words to me was like, she was like, don't do anything if you don't want to do it. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I don't I don't know what that means. Yeah, I don't know what I mean. Yeah. And she's, and she's like, stop doing things that you're gonna like resent and be anxious and mad about, like, Oh, okay. No, yes. Yes, exactly. Do you want to have boundaries and say no, like, what? I don't know how to do that as a mom. And so that was really like a segue and then and then she helped me with my gut health because I was I was really nutrient deficient after having my kids which now I'm like, okay, obviously, like I, you know, you give all your good stuff to your children through birth and breastfeeding and then what's left you know, is was not much for me, so I had to go on some, some really regimented vitamins, some do some really major gut health and detoxing and cleaning out my diet, and I really amped up my meditation practice, and started going to Reiki more. And so I kind of took a deep dive into my health. About four years three or four years after becoming a mom after my son, and having all those experiences of you know, postpartum anxiety and overwhelm and nutrient deficiencies and all these things and, and I just, my eyes were opened up so big, and they continue to be and I continue to, to learn about what it is to heal from the inside out and feel empowered. And it's an ongoing journey. Of course, well, yes. Yeah. Because

Unknown 19:54

and I feel like because I had somewhat I think, like an awakening to with my motherhood and and but it was it was with my second child so with my for I think, I guess I just seeing like the differences between the two births, the two children, like all of that and just like the wonderment of like, all of these things and processes, but then looking at those ways that we can care for ourselves. You know, I feel like motherhood does to have that like awakening journey for some maybe you know, not necessarily for for all moms, but because you wrote to are you you mentioned I wrote a note here today like motherhood like opening our eyes and you kind of you know, realizing those things, but looking at what you did like it brought in focusing on that nutrition focusing on the meditation Reiki like you. You did you did those things. You did do things, but it led you on part of that journey.

Unknown 20:51

Yeah, and I think, you know, I do feel like birth is a transpersonal event. It's beyond the self, you know, another being coming through and whatever weight even you know, through adoption, just whatever it is opening yourself up to another being and so it is beyond the self and, but what it can't you know, through the awakening process, I think it's easy to think, Oh, I'm having an awakening and everything's going to be beautiful and lovely. And I'm going to be a weekend trader like has such a meaning to it. But you know, awakenings can can be preceded by really difficult, chaotic, hard times. And so I think, you know, whenever a woman does have symptoms, especially postpartum, anxiety, depression, like if we can, through support, like support is so important, and not all women have access to support which is, you know, social inequity, but, you know, can can we help transform that experience into what's trying to come through you? And so in this journey to I realized, like, okay, all my symptoms of anxiety, were pointing me towards releasing things that weren't serving me like trying to be a perfect mom or trying to do at all I had to release all those things because I couldn't be that and and why was I trying to be it anyway, because there's some you know, ideal about what it is to be this fantastic, perfect mother. So it led me to that it led me to looking at my gut. It led me to look at you know, my physical health and and realize I was severely deficient in magnesium which is you know, the rest and relaxation, lovely mineral that was life changing to take magnesium. So, it was like, leading me towards where I needed to go, which led towards that awakening process, but all of it is a part of the awakening, the good, bad, the ugly, and then what's to come,

Unknown 22:52

you even put in here and I love that you say that the symptoms are messengers of the body. And together when you work with, with people, you can work to decode them and make sense of them. So it's like you used those symptoms as messengers in your own life, and now you use that to help you know Kluang because it's, I mean, I deal with, you know, people in pain as well too. And so it's like, gosh, you know, I don't want you to be in pain, but also like, what's going on here? What is this pain? Is psychosomatic pain? Pain is usually where you're feeling the pain is usually not where the problem is to so that's always had you know, so it's it's different. I don't know it's there's different symptoms in all aspects mental symptoms, you know, but actual, like physical symptoms are the messengers.

Unknown 23:42

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I love what you do because you you have that awareness and look at you know, okay, you know, hips are tight. How could that also relate to spiritual emotional health and

Unknown 23:56

we get Yeah, we get deep in office. Oh, you're so as tight okay. What kind of emotional trauma do

Unknown 24:00

we Yeah, exactly. Yes. And having that awareness even if you know, your patient, you know, doesn't go there and isn't aware of it. It's like having that body knowledge. And I think, you know, even in my work, you know, in personally if I have a pain and a certain part of my body and it will have like, I will look at the pain and treat the pain worse and go see you. But then I'll also look at like, Okay, well, why is it showing up and what's going on with me what's going on? I don't know hormonally or stress wise or am I doing too much? Or is you know, can I look to my dreams to try to figure out what's going on? And so it's like looking at the whole, the whole picture not reducing somebody to just a symptom like seeing that the body is wise and symptoms are wise even though they are horrible. Sometimes I'm definitely not denying that. And anxiety and depression can be absolutely excruciating for women to experience and, and there's more to uncover beyond just the horribleness of it. Right. And that's a hard place to be that's a really hard place to be, I think, women.

Unknown 25:16

Well, and now I want to know, like, does as we go through motherhood, I mean, I'm assuming the answer to this question is yes, but I'm gonna go and ask, like, does anxiety motherhood change? As like your children grow as you grow? You know, like, it's a two you've mentioned, like this awakening, like, it's this journey. It's not like, oh, I made it, I made it to the top we're done. I'm awakened, you know, there's no more nothing more to learn. Like just kind of speaking to some of the clients that you work with and seeing, okay, this is, you know, it's usually not usually like a certain issue and a new motherhood population versus, you know, our old postpartum population, you know, like, is there does that change do you see changes as, as the children

Unknown 26:04

grow? Oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. You know, the thing about being a conscious mother is like, our children will continue to activate our stuff, too, right? So And additionally, children will activate things in us that may correlate with things that happen in our life as they become that age, which is pretty wild, too. So I think there's like, I don't know I'm kind of thinking of it as like, Okay, so our children grow up. Not only does our mothering need to change with that, but like there's different stages, you know, and then it can bring up different things in ourselves. So, you know, if our child is now a teenager and has their first boyfriend or girlfriend, and you know, then you're having to show up for your child in a different way. You're not going to be able to say we'll do this and don't do this and did it, you know, because then they'll pull away from you. So you have to be like, consciously aware of how you're bringing yourself and then also consciously aware of what's happening for you that might require some healing. So maybe if your child is 16, and they're going on their first date, you're maybe reminded of your first date and whether that was a good or a bad experience. And, and then, you know, is there anything for you to work out there? And then is there anything for you to work out with how you show up with your child as they gain their own independence? You know, especially as children gain their own independence, it requires us to pull back a tiny bit, but still be really present, which is a skill. It's not easy to do, because we see our child in distress or we're like, oh, yeah, this would be great for you. Like, you know, same in therapy. You know, you might see the answer or think that this is the right thing for the person but it's still their journey. And so we can't tell them how to be just like with our children, and that requires patience, self restraint, Prez's actively working through our own stuff. It's a lot right and like overwhelming you now. Well, You know, I have a kiddo that's similar in age to your Lily Kate. So my oldest is 12. And then my youngest is about to be 10. So, and that's kind of where I that question came from, because it's so funny. I, you know, working with lots of new moms in the office and adjusting babies and stuff and we're going through college and latching issues in nursing and sleep regression. And

Unknown 0:23

I'm like, ooh, I've got this like, I know I know what to do this now. Can you help me with my 12 year old because I don't. You know, like,

Unknown 0:29

in my mind, that's where I'm at. So seeing the ebbs and flows of it and how it changes. But I don't know that motherhood journey is so crazy because then you I've just learned so much about myself. Even more and more as they grow, you know, and as they're learning about themselves,

Unknown 0:50

oh my gosh, totally. And it brings up stuff right like Yeah, I mean, what you know, watching my daughter, you know, or looking at her, you know, socially with friends or whatever it like brings me back to my days of, you know, being with friends or you know, feeling left out and how that felt for myself and, you know, then you know, I do I do my own work. I have my own therapists and do dream work and analysis and, you know, so I might look to my dreams too and think like, where's it showing up for me there? You know, maybe I'll have a dream about being her age at that time, and then I can process through that too. And that will help me show up for her differently. Right. So it's like, it is, you know, this process of being self reflective and honest and open and curious and, and not judge ourselves too much. Because this is also the first generation really a parenting kids who have their entire lives, chronicled on social media, and, you know, they have social media, and you're they might, so it's just worth figuring out how to do this thing.

Unknown 1:58

Like yeah, try to figure out how to be human and mothers and, and sometimes it feels like you're like trying to learn how to swim while you're in the end completely. Yeah, so it's not like we're you know, ease in on in the kiddie pool side.

Unknown 2:13

Now, at least it can feel like exactly.

Unknown 2:17

As it changes I know and I so I recently had like parent teacher conferences at school for like my oldest who's in seventh grade. And I remember what brought me a little bit of peace and comfort is talking to one of his teachers. She actually took an hour of her time and we like chatted on the phone one evening. Because she's an amazing human being, and that she has raised she's got She's three older children. So like, one is still a teen, but like, two were in college. And so that was a little bit of like a support system for me, you know, you're looking to those who have gone through it, you know, and so I think that's part of that creating that that circle and that tried to have mothers helping each other as well too. So yes, there's other outlets like there's professionals like you and I but then there's also that tribe so you don't you have like an online. You have an online community is that one aspect of what you've done with that, or how does that work?

Unknown 3:21

Yeah. So, you know, I think it's, it's increasingly easier to have community online but also more difficult to have community at the same time, especially in person and so I'm trying to create a community of like minded women who are, I work with a lot of highly empathic, highly sensitive women who may or may or may not have anxiety actively or in the past, but I'm so really like trying to connect women who are similar and so who can support each other. So yeah, I created my course modern mind, which was kind of a compilation of all the things that I've tried and done to in my healing journey. And so I kind of compiled it all there into like a 12 week course and then for anyone who joins the course, you know, there's a like an online community with Facebook and just access to me for questions and to each other for questions and support. And of course, you know, I'm trying to create more retreats and groups because I just feel like women, we need each other we need to build community and build that tribe and, and have people who we feel like will listen to us not necessarily even fix or help anything, but just listen and

Unknown 4:35

listen. I know, that's a big one. That's a big one. And it's hard to when you have those groups of friends and it's it's, you know, everybody wants to be heard. So then it's it's knowing okay, I can listen over here, but I really need to be heard over here, you know, and that can be I don't know if that can be hard to navigate. It can. But I don't think we're supposed to, you know, raise children alone. And so that sometimes it can feel very often I do you know, in working with moms too, and just sometimes I'm like the only person in their circle that they really like see, you know, regularly or often it's it's it can be tough if they don't have family around or their neighborhood doesn't have these familial units and people have the same, you know, age and that type of thing with the same kids and so, I wonder too, if that has also kind of shaped our motherhood journeys.

Unknown 5:34

Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, you know, back to World War Two. That's that's really the time where suburban living was accessible, you know, in particular for white women. And so kind of we went from familial living of living around generations into these isolated houses with people who weren't your family, and a new kind of community emerged during that time for certain groups of people. And so it is kind of we don't have necessarily that generational support of grandparents, great grandparents, which was it used to be huge and raising kids. And then people live such insulated, isolated lives, and they're so busy and going back to that productivity piece, like rescheduling every half hour and I'm guilty of that. And that's something I'm working on personally around like creating less, less to do and even I've talked about that before, but it's like, yep, you know, like if we're all so busy, and we have so many different things to do, like how are we going to just sit and have a cup of tea with a with another fellow mother and like, talk about these things? So I

Unknown 6:49

really like memes where it's like you're trying to like schedule something that's like, Well, what about next year? What about Ember next year? You know, it's just like, Oh, God, it can be

Unknown 7:03

painful because it's true.

Unknown 7:05

Yeah, I know. But again, awareness awareness. of where we're at now. I want to talk about so you just hosted a retreat. Now you have done retreat before as in like, you have spoken at retreats. Correct. But this one that you just recently did this was this the first one that you hosted, created birthed yourself right? Yes, it doesn't really see you just gave birth again.

Unknown 7:33

I did it feel like that? Oh, really felt like yeah, so I've collaborated and doing retreats for many, many years with different awesome women. And this is the first one that I was like, I know all these really amazing health practitioners and we all need each other. And so let's just, you know, make a retreat for this and bring women together. And it was it was amazing. You spoke there was six other, you know, six health practitioners there. And it was it was a holistic retreat, but it was also, you know, a merging of some conventional with holistic, twisted, you know, so everyone can be informed about what they want to do with their health and their life. And we went to therapy and there were 25 women and it was just, it was wonderful. And it was just a lot of community. And I think the biggest thing I learned was to schedule less, you know, like people wanted more time to just talk to each other and go for walks. And so it was really meaningful for me in that way too, because that's really what we're all seeking is just quiet time. To walk and talk with others and not necessarily do or learn all the time. And so it was a wonderful event.

Unknown 8:49

That's fun feedback. No, I had a blast because that was, I mean, I've spoken for but that was like one of the first events you know, doing or whatnot which was a blast, but you had you know, other therapists there, you had medical doctor, you had naturopathic doctor, you know, both kind of working with women's health and you had a pelvic floor therapist. You do a lot of yoga, like, all just just amazing. It was so good. It was so good. But I liked that you mentioned that sometimes women just wanted, like it was again, it's finding that tribe in that community. And that's kind of what I was thinking of with with the retreat and that and how that's that's a little bit of what we need in creating that.

Unknown 9:34

Yeah, yeah. The practitioners were amazing and from all different realms of, you know, just amazing, you know, are you in particular was it also had shamanic training and it was just a really cool event, but get community it's just it seems like what women are creating so much, and how do we find spaces to do that, in a world is so busy? And then how do we do that within ourselves? You know, I think as we I truly believe that as we do our own healing, and do our own consciousness healing, it contributes to the collective consciousness and and collective change in the world. And so it's also meaningful and we have to do our own work and work with one another, and have that support.

Unknown 10:15

Well, and that kind of speaks a little bit to part of like Bruce Lipton's work, and just like that Biology of Belief, and that you know, your thoughts and your words do have power and they do impact yourselves and then you've got that certain energy and frequency that you have that is spread to others, you know, and they feel it you know, the cells and energies feel that because I often say, you know that like stressed out parents really stressed out kids like that's contagious. So not only are viruses and bacteria is contagious, but like those mental thoughts and patterns are contagious, those immediate you know, if I'm stressed out, and I can I can feel the kids start to feel my energy, you know, and so it's like, oh, gosh, I can't have been stressed out. We're not gonna function. Well.

Unknown 10:59

Yeah, it's Sunday. And you know, to that point, I think it's helpful to talk about to like so often, like recently, I guess intergenerational trauma is like becoming more to the forefront and people are talking about this more. And women are saying like, Oh, my gosh, I have to do this so that I don't pass something on to my kid or I have to work on my stress so that I'm not affecting my kilt. And what that does, like, okay, yes, and like what that also does is it hyper individualized is the problem. And that's a bit that was a big part of my research of looking at like, how we are hyper individualizing problems in women and saying like, you know, you have postpartum anxiety and depression and you have energetic generational trauma. And you have too much stress and you're passing it on to your kid, and it just reinforces this like heavy burden that women feel like they have to carry. So it's like a careful holding of, yes, my mood does affect the state of the household or my clients or whatever. It is. And it's okay if I'm struggling right now, because of this whole context. And being a mother in this whole context. So it's like really holding the two of those together so that we don't shame ourselves and feel even worse.

Unknown 12:15

That's so easy to happen. That's so easy to happen is to shame yourself of like, well, yeah, because that's, I mean, that's what motherhood in general, like, I don't want to screw up my kids, you know, and so that can carry that can be really heavy. You can constantly think that, gosh, every little thing that I'm doing, I'm like, well, now my kids got to go to therapy. You know? And then that can feel that can definitely feel heavy. It can

Unknown 12:41

and that's truly that's like what has reinforced my maternal research is like looking at and this is so well studied is that there are these these pervasive societal ideologies around like being this good mother and reifying motherhood to the point of like, you are going to screw up your kid or you are going to get your kid to Harvard, you know, it's like, it's just such pressure on mothers. That is not like any other group of people. And, you know, looking at what really got me and I'll tell you like, when I read this, the DSM, which is our diagnostic and statistical manual for mental health, and it was like after four weeks, a woman can be diagnosed with postpartum depression. So four weeks that's it, have a baby? Yeah, four weeks to get better, right. And then, and then usually the doctor will prescribe you medication which can be very helpful for some people. So I'm not you know, say anything about that. But the My point is, you got four weeks, you get the diagnosis, you get on medication, it takes two weeks to kick in, and then six weeks you're back to work, right? It fits so perfectly. We're the only industrialized nation to not have maternal paid maternal leave, right? So it's just it's looking at the system, like are you actually sick with postpartum depression? Maybe, and it's only been four weeks and do you have support and do you have resources? And, and, and, and, right, so the context

Unknown 14:21

guy now that all make sense, it's like, I don't know. That's a lot. That's yeah, it's a lot. So but it explains so much, you know, because even sometimes, too, I'm like, oh, yeah, this 40 Hour Work is like we created this. We create this like why I thought that this was and it's also maybe we can even speak on this as you know the differences between because I've shared with you this before I really love Christiane Northrup and Kate Northrup and looking at that feminine cycle and honoring the fact that men are on a 24 hour cycle you know, like that is literally like each day, it's like Groundhog Day, right? Just 24 hour cycle for that we women are not on that cycle. We're on beautiful like moon cycle and sometimes it's 28 days and sometimes it's not, you know, there's this ebb and flow there's an up and down and it's I sometimes feel like too, that motherhood is trying to honor our cycle in this godly are we gonna talk about patriarchy now like patriarchal society, but that that can also be an issue too. You know, when we almost like when you're trying to push and you have those expectations. And maybe those expectations are of your you're trying to manage in this 24 hour cycle and you just had a baby? Yes. Exactly. There is no there is a

Unknown 15:44

cycle. Yes, exactly. It's not designed to be slow or and I you know, that's one of the most empowering things when I started, you know, tracking my cycle and recognizing, you know, seeing how it syncs up to the moons and how it doesn't sync up to the moon and how I need to slow down during certain times and you know, that our schedules don't allow for that and how that impacts us. And, you know, I I truly feel like, you know, women are given such a bad rap around PMS and periods, right. I'm sure you've, you know, it's like, oh, she's just on her period or she's so moody because she's on her period. And I say, Well, maybe something is being allowed to to be expressed right now. Like, why? Why is it such a horrible thing for her to have like, a little extra anxiety or be a little sharper with her tongue? Like maybe there's something in her that's wanting to be processed and integrated and move through. And so if we take that perspective, it's like, then our PMS can be our messenger and we can learn about ourselves. And instead of demonizing this period of time when we have our periods and such a stigma,

Unknown 16:56

it is it is I know I'm sorry, I didn't even I didn't have in my in my outline that we're gonna talk about cycles and everything. Right. That's where but it's, but that's part of that's part of the journey. I think that's a little bit of part of the awakening, too, because even going back to not only like motherhood post World War Two, but back when to when I started my cycle it was I know that they're doing like I love little celebration ceremonies that we do now for our young girls going through this whereas, you know, I think back when we were growing up, it was just, it was this demonized thing. It's like ah, you know, like it was this thing to, to not be honored, you know, or and now, I have a totally different view on it. You know, I do my exercises. are different with it. Like everything is kind of there. And I learned I have to give myself that space and that grace and to say no to things because it's going to push me too much. So kind of boundaries. saying No,

Unknown 17:56

exactly. Yeah. The body wisdom.

Unknown 18:00

Yes. Now, what are some tools that you go over with moms are there to turn that anxiety into awakening? Sure you have, you know, lots of lots of different things that you do, but what could you speak to that?

Unknown 18:21

Yeah, I think seriously, allow them to have a complex range of emotion is really important and feelings about being a member. You know, I think what therapy this gives us a safe, whatever we need to say, and to be validated in that experience. It's really hard for women to be able to talk about frustrations or something that goes against this kind of maternal ideal. And so I think first of all, it's like, allowing yourself to feel you feel with as little judgement as possible. So you know whether you're going to or not, try journaling even if you feel and you throw it away. We have to external, the internal somehow. And so that can be a tool to use, and I, I really believe in dream analysis. And so, you know, if you could write down your dreams, and just without judging it, too, I think that's the big piece of it is just judging it, you know, you might have a crazy dream and write it down and judge yourself about it. And working on like, just becoming aware of where am I judging myself? Where am I telling myself I can't feel this way. Or I should feel some other way weirdness of language, our internal language and our external language is really huge as well. And of course, boundary setting. Journey to around Yes, it's okay to say no, it's okay to leave the dishes in the sink. It's okay to go for a walk. It's you know, just giving yourself permission to have boundaries can be huge. Recognizing that we are playing into these well researched ideas about you know what it is to be a good mother. And so if we can see how that plays out in our life, that we can give ourselves permission to show up as we really are and how we need to be recognizing that these hard emotions are also very often temporary doesn't mean you're feeling bad about being a mom that you're always going to be sad being mom like it's so if we can recognize the emotion then we can let it go more quickly. So stuck, restored, and we don't have shame about it.

Unknown 20:58

That's how I view like chiropractic adjustments as well to is getting that unseen energy subluxations that blockage of that nervous system connection, Brain Body Body brain connection, and like, you know, and letting it go. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown 21:15

They ask the body work. Okay.

Unknown 21:19

Ah, I love everything that you mentioned today. It's always fun talking to you. Always. I know we do we do. Um, so your PhD dissertation. It was the socio cultural exploration of maternal anxiety. Right? That was your head die like it was an embodied voice can improve therapeutic outcomes. Oh, that's why I mean, I'm like I just that's, that's amazing. Um, okay, so what I want to do I want you to tell people like how they can reach you, like website social media, what you do and ways that they can connect with you and learn more.

Unknown 22:03

So I am on Instagram, mostly social media wise. Dr. Megan Ketu. and my website is Megan tubes.com. And that has all the information for upcoming retreats or workshops and also the course so if anyone is interested in taking that course, as well, so all the information is on the website and then it can be found at Instagram.

Unknown 22:30

Yeah, you always post really good things on Instagram too. I always love it. So you didn't want there was one recently have we gaslight ourselves? Well, yeah, that one was good. I even talked about down in the office yesterday. And then you even have one to like the disregarding of symptoms and the medical world and navigating that as a woman and speaking up for yourself. So I just I want to plug those things as far as like people go check you out because it's really good. little tidbits of information that you share. So yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. I absolutely loved it. I don't know I'm sure we could. I'm sure we come with an old topic and have you on again.

Unknown 23:08

Thanks for having me. I'm so thankful for all that you do and put out in the world and this podcast is amazing. So thanks for having me. Honored to be a part Crown.