Ep 121: The Healing Power of Birth Photography - birth story interview with psychotherapist Emma and doula Maegan

We recently had doula/photographer/videographer Maegan Hall on the show, but now we’re having her back with one of her clients to talk about the healing power of birth photography.  We always say on this show, birth is unpredictable.  Emma, a local psychotherapist so graciously shares her birth story via a blog with Maegan as well as this interview.  She writes, “Birth brings us to the end of ourselves in ways that we cannot (and maybe aren’t supposed to) anticipate. There are all kinds of childbirth classes intended to prepare us for labor itself, but it seems there is far less conversation around making sense of the birth after the fact.“

Although Emma’s birth was not what she had anticipated, she was able to use the birth images captured by Maegan, to provide clarity around her birth story, and ultimately aid in her ability to process the birth.  

Episode 115: supporting birth and capturing memories with Maegan Hall 

Connect with Emma

Connect with Maegan

The healing power of birth photography blog 

Transcript

Dr. Shannon:
Hello, hello friends and family. You're listening to the Aligned Birth podcast. We've got a special treat today. This is our first attempt on our Riverside recording platform that we're using now with two guests and the host. So I'm one of the hosts of the show, Dr. Shannon. We have Megan Hall on today. So she is our birth photographer, doula and videographer. We had her on episode 115 and that was really talking about supporting birth and capturing memories. But we also have Emma on today and Emma is a mother and she is sharing her birth story with us today and now we're talking about the healing powers and the healing impact that birth photography can have on us, not only to process that birth process. but looking into how we approach postpartum. And so Emma is a local psychotherapist specializing in complex trauma, attachment, and spirituality. So Emma wrote this beautiful blog and Megan supplied the birth photography with it. And so there's one quote from it that I wanna share to kind of get us started into the show because I don't know, Emma has a way with words. She definitely has a way with words. And so I wanna share one little highlight. of it here and it says, I was

Emma:
I

Dr. Shannon:
so

Emma:
was

Dr. Shannon:
scared

Emma:
so scared

Dr. Shannon:
to look

Emma:
to

Dr. Shannon:
at

Emma:
look

Dr. Shannon:
them,

Emma:
at them,

Dr. Shannon:
the birth

Emma:
the birth

Dr. Shannon:
pictures,

Emma:
pictures.

Dr. Shannon:
and relive

Emma:
And it

Dr. Shannon:
a

Emma:
was

Dr. Shannon:
birth

Emma:
a birth

Dr. Shannon:
that had

Emma:
that

Dr. Shannon:
gone

Emma:
had gone

Dr. Shannon:
so

Emma:
so

Dr. Shannon:
differently

Emma:
differently

Dr. Shannon:
than I

Emma:
than

Dr. Shannon:
expected.

Emma:
I expected.

Dr. Shannon:
There was

Emma:
There

Dr. Shannon:
some

Emma:
was

Dr. Shannon:
sort

Emma:
one

Dr. Shannon:
of

Emma:
sort

Dr. Shannon:
implicit

Emma:
of implicit

Dr. Shannon:
trauma

Emma:
moment

Dr. Shannon:
and grief

Emma:
in the

Dr. Shannon:
that existed

Emma:
dream that

Dr. Shannon:
for

Emma:
I

Dr. Shannon:
me

Emma:
thought

Dr. Shannon:
that I

Emma:
would

Dr. Shannon:
thought would be

Emma:
be

Dr. Shannon:
triggered

Emma:
a trigger

Dr. Shannon:
by the

Emma:
to

Dr. Shannon:
pictures.

Emma:
anything.

Dr. Shannon:
But

Emma:
But

Dr. Shannon:
thankfully,

Emma:
thankfully,

Dr. Shannon:
my experience

Emma:
my parents

Dr. Shannon:
was just

Emma:
had just

Dr. Shannon:
the

Emma:
got

Dr. Shannon:
opposite.

Emma:
me out of there. For

Dr. Shannon:
For me,

Emma:
me,

Dr. Shannon:
my birth

Emma:
my birth

Dr. Shannon:
photos

Emma:
photos

Dr. Shannon:
helped

Emma:
will

Dr. Shannon:
me piece

Emma:
keep

Dr. Shannon:
together

Emma:
you together.

Dr. Shannon:
what happened

Emma:
What happens next?

Dr. Shannon:
in a way that had nothing to do with words. So welcome to the show today, Megan and Emma.

Emma:
Hello.

Dr. Shannon:
Hey.

Maegan:
Hi! You have to remind me, I have to say words, because I keep

Dr. Shannon:
Yes,

Maegan:
thinking it's...

Dr. Shannon:
you gotta use words, because it's not just video, I know. So we

Maegan:
Yeah

Dr. Shannon:
do have video with this, that's okay. Okay, so what I wanna do with this is I would love, so Megan was your doula. and photographer

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
for your birth, correct Emma? So

Emma:
Mm-hmm,

Dr. Shannon:
I would

Emma:
yep.

Dr. Shannon:
love

Emma:
So I would

Dr. Shannon:
for

Emma:
love

Dr. Shannon:
you

Emma:
for you

Dr. Shannon:
to

Emma:
to...

Dr. Shannon:
kind of wherever you wanna start that birth story and wherever you kind of wanna come into like, I know, right?

Emma:
I

Dr. Shannon:
Where do

Emma:
know,

Dr. Shannon:
we wanna start?

Emma:
right? Where do we want to go? Uh huh. Um, yeah, okay. Well, one thing I want to name is that I do have a cold right now, so if I sound sniffly, it's not because I'm crying. It's because I have

Dr. Shannon:
It's

Emma:
a cold.

Dr. Shannon:
okay if you cry, but yeah. Uh-huh.

Emma:
Though also, you know, sometimes when you talk about your labor, you can also cry. Uh, okay, yes. So

Dr. Shannon:
Was this your

Emma:
yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
first birth?

Emma:
This was my first birth. This

Dr. Shannon:
Okay.

Emma:
was my first baby. I had a miscarriage previously before having this baby, but it was a very early miscarriage. So I had not been pregnant for very, very long. But yes, first birth experience and I was, I don't know, I'm so curious for Megan to jump in and at any point because I'm just kind of curious to tell the story along with you because I know you have such a different perspective than I did. from having been the doula and not the birthing person. But I like to be prepared for things. Part of how I was making sense of being pregnant. I had been very anxious about being pregnant and my pregnancy actually went pretty well. And anyway, I had done a lot of research about birth. I listened to so many podcast episodes of women sharing their birth stories. And I... Yeah, I just was ready. I was nervous and anxious, of course. But our hope was to just, we were working with Megan and we were also working with a midwife. And our hope, my husband and myself, was to give birth at home and do an

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
unmedicated home birth. So we had prepared for that. We had gotten our birthing tub rented and Megan had talked through, you know, the photography aspect and having... twinkle lights strung up and things like that. And so we had prepared all of those things. I had sort of, I guess, what is it called? Prodromal labor pains

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
a couple of days before. So when I started having contractions, it was maybe four in the morning on a Thursday morning. Wednesday night, Thursday morning, and I didn't know if they were actually going to continue or not because previously they had not. They had ended up stopping. But I made note of them and I was like, oh, okay, that's something. I'm definitely having some cramping and I think these are contractions. We actually had an appointment scheduled for that day to see our midwife. So we just kind of went on with the day like normal. And I also booked an appointment, shout out to Chiropractic, I also booked an appointment to see my chiropractor that day. I was like, well,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
if I am in labor, I might as well see my fricking chiropractor.

Dr. Shannon:
And if it's starting, stopping, that's always a kind of like,

Emma:
Yes,

Dr. Shannon:
OK, let's see what's

Maegan:
I'm

Dr. Shannon:
going

Maegan:
gonna

Dr. Shannon:
on. Yeah.

Maegan:
go to sleep.

Emma:
yeah. And Megan had suggested doing, gosh, all the words are escaping me now, it's been

Maegan:
I'll

Emma:
a year.

Maegan:
surf.

Emma:
Yeah, the mile circuit.

Dr. Shannon:
Uh huh.

Emma:
I did

Dr. Shannon:
Some

Emma:
the

Dr. Shannon:
curb

Emma:
mile

Dr. Shannon:
walking.

Emma:
circuit like it was my job. And I will say this, that from everything I understand, my baby was in a wonderful position.

Dr. Shannon:
There we go!

Emma:
But anyway, so I did all those things and we went to see our midwife whose name was Shoshana. And... Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
That's all her in the pictures that you have because I was like, I love Shoshanna. She's

Emma:
Do

Dr. Shannon:
amazing.

Emma:
you know her? Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
Yeah, we went to see her and I was like, I don't know. I still was kind of guarding myself. I'm like, I don't know. This is really... happening or whatever and she kind of just played it cool and she was like, yeah, I mean, you're definitely contracting. And she told me later that after my husband, his name is Taylor, after Taylor and I left her office, she called her birthing assistant. She was like, hey, I'm just letting you know we're going to be at Emma's house tonight because she already

Dr. Shannon:
I love

Emma:
knew.

Dr. Shannon:
it.

Emma:
She was like, your contractions are actually pretty strong. So yeah, labor had started at four in the morning and then at six PM my water broke. And I... I called my midwife, she had said obviously call her if and when my water broke. I don't remember making you have to help me remember if at what point I reached out to you. I might have also told you when my water broke and you were at another birth.

Maegan:
Yes, yes. Yes,

Emma:
So

Maegan:
you are contracting just so you know. And then I got the text, Hey, my water broke. And I was like, set a cuss word. And then I was like, Okay, I'll make it I'll make it. I just didn't want the baby coming flying out of you. But you know,

Emma:
But it was quite the opposite. So,

Dr. Shannon:
Here we

Emma:
yes,

Dr. Shannon:
go.

Emma:
my water broke. And then the next thing I remember, and obviously, you know, my husband was actually gone. He had gone to run some errand of some kind when my water broke. But anyway, I started to notice that my water was kind of a weird color. And I was like, crap, that's meconium. And I sent pictures of it to my midwife, and she said, yeah, that's what that is. And in my mind, and I know that this can be different, maybe, from different midwives or maybe even in different states and things like that. But my first thought was, oh no, I'm gonna have to go to the hospital. I'm not gonna be able to still do a home birth if I have meconium in my water. And what Shoshana said is she said, if you are more comfortable with that, then yes, you can just go to the hospital. But she said, I'm really, she said, we don't know how long it's been there, we don't know when the baby had its first poop. So she said, well just, monitor you and the baby extra closely and

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
that's kind of all we can do and then if something seems like you know the baby's in distress or something like that then Then we go into the hospital, but so that was relieving for me, but I still was kind of like oh This is not you know I had done my research so anyway, so

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
At that point let's see some time between 6 & 7 and Shoshana came pretty soon after that She showed up probably within an hour or two And all I really, I think maybe by midnight-ish, which again, Megan, you can help me a little bit with the timeline if you remember. My contractions were only a couple minutes apart, I think.

Maegan:
Yes,

Emma:
And so.

Maegan:
because you told me, I remember I was like, hey, we were on the phone and I was in the parking lot at North Fulton. And I was

Emma:
Thank

Maegan:
like,

Emma:
you.

Maegan:
okay, I'm just coming home from a birth. I can come to you now or I can go home and go to sleep.

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
And you were like, well, they're only two to three minutes apart. You should probably come. And I was like, okay.

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
And so I just left the birth and went straight to you.

Emma:
Yeah. So then we, everything was all going fine. We had the tub set up. I got in the tub. I think my midwife checked my dilation and I asked her not to tell me what it was. But I think after the fact, she told me, she did say you're more than halfway. I think I might've been like six or seven centimeters dilated at that point. So that had happened fairly quickly

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
for me to get over that hump. And so everybody was kind of thinking, okay, it's gonna be some time, at least from my perspective, everyone thought, okay, it's gonna be some time throughout the night or maybe early to mid morning on Friday. And I got in the tub and as I understand can happen, contractions slow down when you get in the tub and that happened to me and after some time, I got back out of the tub and then we did. anything and everything we could think of to try to get my contractions going again. I mean Shoshana had all these crazy herbs and tinctures that she was having me take. I was listening to hypno-birthing things. I was, um, I remember at one point, basically what ended up happening, maybe I'll preface and go ahead and say my labor ended up being 64 hours long. So I had,

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Emma:
it's, yeah, I did not give birth until Saturday evening. So this was Friday. And so we spent all day Friday at home laboring. And at a certain point, I got up to eight, eight and a half centimeters dilated. And then I guess I just never was really able to get into transition the way that I needed to. Sometimes it seemed like maybe I was close. We, we did the castor oil trick thing too, which... Um, didn't help. I mean, maybe a

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
little bit. It just didn't do what it needed to do, but it did make me have to go to the bathroom a ton, which was

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
also wildly uncomfortable. And, um, so yeah, Friday was just, I mean, a daze. And people

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
were taking turns. I mean, everyone was just sleeping. And there were times where, so Shana said, I almost filmed you snoring between contractions, so you knew. that you were

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
actually sleeping. Because at this point, I mean, I hadn't even, at 4 a.m. on Thursday, I hadn't really, I was nervous, I was excited, I did not. And I was trying to sleep on Thursday, but I was too excited. I had not slept in a long time. I mean, I was just trying everything. And my poor husband

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
was just like, what is happening? Why,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
what I don't understand. Early Friday morning, no, Saturday morning, Friday night. Maybe at like 5 a.m. Shoshana had come in to check me or she had been doing these frequent checks and whatever, not cervical checks, but whatever the heck. Huh?

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
Heart tones.

Emma:
Yeah, yeah, heart tones. And she and I were the only ones awake at that point. And I remember she said, do you want me to check you again? And I was like, yes, please. I'm like, God, I've been laboring all day. And she checked me again and she said there's been no change. And

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm

Emma:
I just, I was just like,

Dr. Shannon:
It's defeating. Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I don't know what else to do. And so she said,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
well, what do you wanna do? And I was like, I think I need to go to the hospital. And my thought at this point was I need sleep.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I can't push a baby out of me if I haven't slept. And so we woke up Megan and then. I think my husband was still asleep at that point and Shoshana's assistant, we also got up and she came in and we were all kind of gathered around on my bed. And I remember Megan, you saying, you know, what do you want to do? How do you feel? What do you think? And you seemed very, if you want to stay here, you can stay here. If you want to go to the hospital, you can go. And this was the first point that Shoshana had actually said anything one way or the other. But she said, I looked at her and I said, what do you think? And she said, I think you need Pitocin. So, and that I remember felt so relieving. Just, it felt validating maybe because what I was already feeling

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
was, I don't know, I think I need to go to the hospital. So to have her also say that, I was like, okay, this isn't like a failure on my part somehow. This isn't that I could be doing more. I mean, I was like walking around our neighborhood. I was taking.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
like lunges up the steps from our basement to our... I was doing anything and everything I could think to do and it just wasn't happening. So we woke up my husband and I told him. So we showered and we packed bags that I hadn't planned to, you know, hadn't already had a pre- packed bag. And I will say it ended up timing-wise working out well because we got to the hospital around 6 30. So it was right before a shift change. We didn't hit any traffic on the way there. And And we were admitted and I got an epidural and pitocin and then I slept and we all slept, I think. I

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
think I probably slept longest. Megan, I think you slept out in your car in the parking garage.

Maegan:
Yes.

Dr. Shannon:
Like

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
a true, yeah I know, like true birth worker here, just where, where do we sleep? Oh my god.

Emma:
Yeah. And then so let's see maybe around this is where it gets even hazier for me in some ways.

Dr. Shannon:
Uh-huh.

Maegan:
it does for me.

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
Yeah, I don't know exact timelines, but I think let's see. So we got in the hospital around 630 in the morning. So I've been labored for two days at that point. And they had me try pushing sometime in the afternoon, maybe around. 12 or two or something. And how long did I push for? It was like, I think a couple hours.

Maegan:
Yes, because you, well, I don't want to say what you did. Because

Emma:
because

Maegan:
I'll

Emma:
I'll

Maegan:
see

Emma:
see

Maegan:
what

Emma:
what

Maegan:
you

Emma:
you

Maegan:
share,

Emma:
share.

Maegan:
but yes, it was a few hours, you were very tired.

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
What do you, what do you, what? I wanna know.

Maegan:
What's

Dr. Shannon:
You're

Maegan:
that

Dr. Shannon:
like, what

Maegan:
got

Dr. Shannon:
did

Maegan:
to do

Dr. Shannon:
I do?

Maegan:
with

Emma:
Yeah.

Maegan:
it? And you did this and you're going to go, Megan!

Dr. Shannon:
Ah.

Maegan:
Like so it, yes, you tell your part and I will go off. But yes,

Emma:
Yes.

Maegan:
you pushed for a couple hours and you were very tired. You did not want to do it anymore.

Emma:
Yeah, I did. I

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
got angry. I got, and they were having me push in all these different positions. And I remember there were certain positions and there's a couple of photos of this too, where there's a position that I was in where I was kind of like sitting there like this. And I remember I was like, oh, I was pissed in that moment.

Dr. Shannon:
You're like,

Emma:
I did

Dr. Shannon:
I know what I

Emma:
not

Dr. Shannon:
was thinking there.

Emma:
like that position. I didn't, and I felt just, I don't, yeah, I wasn't doing anything. And everyone kept saying, you know, let us know when you feel the urge to poop. That's the feeling of. that the baby's, you know, and I was

Dr. Shannon:
engaged.

Emma:
like, I don't feel that. I don't know, you guys are talking about this feeling and I don't know. So they said, okay, you know what? We're gonna have you rest for a little bit longer. And we're gonna have you rest in this very specific position that hopefully will get the baby, you know, engaged and down and at the right station and all of those things. And so they had me propped up in a highly uncomfortable position on a peanut ball and. I rested, I don't remember how long it was that I rested in that position, but I do remember a couple things. I remember my epidural started wearing off and I remember I started to feel the pressure of the baby. And I also, I think, again, around that time, I spiked a fever.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
And I... was so... This is the part... I would say, this might be the part that was the worst for me of all of it. And this is the part where I'll get emotional is, I just remember feeling at my wits end. I was like, and I had, and I think I may be right about this in the blog post, that this was the moment for me that I had heard about. And I understand that for different women, this moment can arrive in a myriad of ways. But this was the moment for me that I came to the end of myself. It was like I had

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
all of these ideas about what labor could be like, and I slowly but surely was having to let go of them. You know, I wanted to do it at home and I had made a decision to do it at the hospital. Even with my water breaking and having, you know, my water breaks so early in meconium, it's like you want these beautiful birth photos and I'm walking around in an adult diaper for the entire time and just. I had mascara on and two days in I was like, I don't care what I look like anymore. And so, you know, whatever. And those things don't really matter that much to me personally. But there had just been all these things I'd had to let go of. And that was just another moment of it. Or even having an epidural, I had wanted it to be unmedicated and to make that decision. And We didn't even get to go to the hospital we really wanted to go to. We wanted to go to North Fulton but they didn't have beds available so we went to Wellstar instead and it all turned

Maegan:
we'll

Emma:
out

Maegan:
start

Emma:
fine.

Maegan:
on this too.

Dr. Shannon:
It was like all the things, yeah.

Emma:
All the things

Dr. Shannon:
Literally letting go. But I love

Emma:
of everything.

Dr. Shannon:
that you mentioned that though, because it was literally, yep, but coming to that end of yourself, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Emma:
of yourself. And so that was probably the most like kairos moment of that for me, where I spiked that fever and just was. It's like that moment where you don't care if you live or die and you're just like, I don't care about anything right now. I don't even know what's happening. So I had this fever and I was probably also going through transition now that I think back, which was maybe also a piece of what I, and that was making me nervous. I was feeling very nauseous. I don't like being nauseous and I was like, ah. I just don't like these feelings, what's going on? And then at this point, I still knew in the back of my mind I'm going to have to push again. And that was the moment too where I was like, I can't, I can't, I'm not gonna be able to push. I could barely keep my eyes open. I could barely string words together. And I remember trying to get my husband to come over to me and basically saying, I need a C-section. I just was like, I can't, I cannot push this baby out. and he and at that point the doctor came in Yeah, maybe just the doctor, maybe the anesthesiologist also, but the doctor came in and my husband said, hey, what if we did a C-section? And this doctor was so mad at him for it in the moment, but looking back, I'm actually very grateful to him. He said, you know, I'd really rather not do a C-section. And I know he had his reasons, and I think his reasons were predominantly the fact that I had been in labor for so long and I had meconium in my fluid and they were, and now that I had a fever, they were like, well, you might have a... an infection of some kind and so we don't want to have to cut you open if we can help it. So he said, you know what, I want to try with the original plan. I want you to push again and we're going to use a vacuum assist. And if that doesn't work, remember him saying this too, if that doesn't work, we're just going to have to go in and push the baby back up your birth canal and then we'll take you in for a C-section. And I'm just like, okay. And at this point,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
we were coming up on another ship change. I mean, it had been another almost 12 hours. And I remember a couple nurses coming in being like, you're still here? And I was like, never, never

Dr. Shannon:
Don't

Emma:
say that

Dr. Shannon:
ever say

Emma:
to

Dr. Shannon:
that.

Emma:
a birthing woman.

Dr. Shannon:
Yes.

Emma:
But yeah, so at that point then I started pushing again. And do you remember at that point, Megan, how long I pushed?

Maegan:
Well, you had a vacuum assist, so it wasn't that

Emma:
It wasn't

Maegan:
long.

Emma:
that long. I think it was only like maybe 30 or 45 minutes.

Maegan:
was being 45.

Emma:
Okay, yeah. And they did, they used the vacuum assistant. I remember they only had three tries and I think they might've

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
used all three. They at least used two of them.

Maegan:
Yes. I don't

Emma:
Um

Maegan:
know. Well, if you would have the third pop off, your C section.

Emma:
than your

Maegan:
So

Emma:
C-section.

Maegan:
that means

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
you only had two pop offs.

Emma:
Yes, worked on the third. Third time was the charm.

Maegan:
I'm sorry.

Emma:
And yes, the baby was born. I was able to deliver her vaginally. I delivered her with that vacuum assist and it was. a massive letdown, if I'm honest.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I can see this looking back at the pictures too. I didn't have, I mean I did not, if I'm totally honest, I did not care about that baby when she came out of me. I mean I obviously wanted her to be okay and I wanted her to be safe and healthy but I did not feel after glow. I did not

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
feel, I did not have that, I'm just you know golden hour whatever

Dr. Shannon:
The

Emma:
they

Dr. Shannon:
golden

Emma:
call

Dr. Shannon:
hour.

Emma:
it. Also, she came out and she needed to be, she almost had to go to the NICU. She had a lot of fluid in her lungs and things like that. So they put her on top of me for just a second. And I had wanted the umbilical cord to get to stay connected for a little bit, before they cut it. And because she was in distress, they had to immediately cut it. Which again, at that point, I did not care.

Dr. Shannon:
You're like I've surrendered everything

Emma:
I've surrendered

Dr. Shannon:
at this point

Emma:
everything.

Dr. Shannon:
already.

Emma:
And they brought her over to. whatever tape. Oh, and the other thing is that we had this was a shift change. It was she was born at 7 46 PM. So they had they were like in the middle of a shift change. And I remember Megan being like, here's our birth plan. We you know, telling them we want as few people in the room as possible. And then the room was jam packed with so many people.

Maegan:
No reason. It wasn't like the baby was handled just fine with the tiny little NICU team, but it was like your previous nurse liked you and she also liked being on photos. So she didn't wanna leave. Then there was a training nurse and you had three OBs between your knees. And they were

Emma:
I

Maegan:
using

Emma:
did.

Maegan:
it as a training experience. And

Emma:
Yes,

Maegan:
I

Emma:
they

Maegan:
was

Emma:
were.

Maegan:
like, and you were so checked out. I was like, I didn't want that for you, but I also was happy because I kept looking at you being like, are you okay with the party that is happening? Because

Emma:
I didn't

Maegan:
there's

Emma:
give

Maegan:
a lot

Emma:
a crap.

Maegan:
of people here and you didn't care. I was fuming. I was just like, nothing we've asked for is happening right now. I mean, I remember there was one point I was trying to get photos and I couldn't because

Emma:
here.

Maegan:
there were so many people around you that were just standing there observing as you were an educational resource. Like, and

Emma:
And

Maegan:
I

Emma:
I

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was

Maegan:
like,

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
I mean,

Emma:
I mean, if there's

Maegan:
we should,

Emma:
issues

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like

Maegan:
if you

Emma:
if

Maegan:
can

Emma:
you can

Maegan:
clip

Emma:
slip

Maegan:
in

Emma:
in

Maegan:
or whatever,

Emma:
or whatever,

Maegan:
there's

Emma:
there's

Maegan:
a

Emma:
a

Maegan:
photo

Emma:
photo

Maegan:
literally

Emma:
literally

Maegan:
where

Emma:
where

Maegan:
she's

Emma:
she's

Maegan:
meeting

Emma:
moving

Maegan:
her

Emma:
the

Maegan:
baby

Emma:
music

Maegan:
and I'm

Emma:
and I'm

Maegan:
trying

Emma:
trying

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
get

Emma:
get

Maegan:
it.

Emma:
it

Maegan:
And

Emma:
and

Maegan:
I'm

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like

Maegan:
shooting

Emma:
shooting

Maegan:
between

Emma:
between

Maegan:
someone's

Emma:
somebody's

Maegan:
arms.

Emma:
arms.

Maegan:
Like,

Emma:
Like,

Maegan:
because

Emma:
because

Maegan:
I was

Emma:
I was

Maegan:
her

Emma:
her

Maegan:
doula

Emma:
doula

Maegan:
and had

Emma:
and I had

Maegan:
no

Emma:
no

Maegan:
room

Emma:
room

Maegan:
around

Emma:
around

Maegan:
her because

Emma:
her because

Maegan:
she was

Emma:
she was

Maegan:
bombarded

Emma:
bombarded

Maegan:
with

Emma:
with-

Maegan:
people.

Emma:
Rando's. Random people.

Dr. Shannon:
Mmm.

Maegan:
They just, like, it was weird. But I'm glad you don't mind. Like when I think about it, I'm like, ah,

Emma:
Yeah,

Maegan:
but

Emma:
I

Maegan:
you're,

Emma:
mean on principle

Maegan:
you are so,

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
yeah.

Emma:
like, yeah, that's stupid, but it did not make a difference to me in the moment. I really,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I just didn't care. And I remember also, Megan, you came over to me and you said, hey, I'm letting you know. I just, I mean, I remember looking over. The other thing was, was I tore pretty badly, which is not surprising considering I had also just gotten a fresh epidural because it had been wearing off. So I mean, I had the fresh epidural and had the vacuum assist. So I tore badly and they spent a long time stitching me up. Not to mention the doctor was using it as a teaching opportunity for the residents of stitching

Maegan:
which I

Emma:
me.

Maegan:
will interrupt you and say.

Emma:
Yeah.

Maegan:
Like, this is how hard it was. Like, so normally for the people listening, normally your baby's placed on your chest. You're like, oh my God, love this. And then at some point you deliver the placenta and then they check you for tearing. It's a very quiet process. It's a, hey, you're gonna maybe feel a stick while you're adding up a diril,

Emma:
So,

Maegan:
so you wouldn't have

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
felt

Emma:
going

Maegan:
it.

Emma:
to

Maegan:
I'm gonna go

Emma:
go

Maegan:
ahead

Emma:
ahead

Maegan:
and repair

Emma:
and repair

Maegan:
your

Emma:
your

Maegan:
stitches

Emma:
stitches

Maegan:
or

Emma:
or

Maegan:
repair

Emma:
repair

Maegan:
your...

Emma:
your

Maegan:
tear

Emma:
hair

Maegan:
with

Emma:
with

Maegan:
stitches,

Emma:
stitches.

Maegan:
here's

Emma:
Here's

Maegan:
what we're looking

Emma:
what we're looking

Maegan:
at, whatever

Emma:
at, whatever

Maegan:
degree.

Emma:
the green.

Maegan:
There's a small, small conversation. And then it's like, just focus on your baby, I'll be down here doing my thing. Well, the main OB had two other OBs on his side, so the

Emma:
So

Maegan:
entire

Emma:
the entire

Maegan:
moment

Emma:
moment

Maegan:
when she's,

Emma:
when she's,

Maegan:
when

Emma:
when

Maegan:
baby

Emma:
baby

Maegan:
should

Emma:
should

Maegan:
be hearing

Emma:
be hearing

Maegan:
only

Emma:
only

Maegan:
mom

Emma:
mom

Maegan:
and dad's

Emma:
and dad's

Maegan:
voice,

Emma:
voice,

Maegan:
all

Emma:
all

Maegan:
I heard

Emma:
I heard

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was

Maegan:
the

Emma:
the

Maegan:
OB

Emma:
OB

Maegan:
saying,

Emma:
saying,

Maegan:
okay,

Emma:
okay,

Maegan:
so

Emma:
so

Maegan:
here's

Emma:
here's what

Maegan:
what

Emma:
we're

Maegan:
we're going

Emma:
going

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
do.

Emma:
do.

Maegan:
You

Emma:
You

Maegan:
have

Emma:
have

Maegan:
this,

Emma:
this,

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like

Maegan:
it was

Emma:
it was

Maegan:
a

Emma:
a

Maegan:
whole

Emma:
whole

Maegan:
educational.

Emma:
educational

Maegan:
experience

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
experience

Maegan:
talking

Emma:
talking

Maegan:
in these

Emma:
in this

Maegan:
very

Emma:
very

Maegan:
sacred

Emma:
sacred,

Maegan:
precious

Emma:
precious

Maegan:
moments

Emma:
moment

Maegan:
of

Emma:
of

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
the

Emma:
the

Maegan:
first

Emma:
first

Maegan:
few

Emma:
few

Maegan:
whatevers

Emma:
whatever's

Maegan:
of

Emma:
of

Maegan:
meeting

Emma:
meeting

Maegan:
baby

Emma:
baby

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and he

Maegan:
he

Emma:
just

Maegan:
just

Emma:
was

Maegan:
was teaching

Emma:
teaching

Maegan:
a

Emma:
the

Maegan:
full-blown

Emma:
full-blown

Maegan:
class

Emma:
class

Maegan:
on

Emma:
on

Maegan:
how

Emma:
how

Maegan:
to get

Emma:
to

Maegan:
stitches to

Dr. Shannon:
Thanks

Maegan:
the

Dr. Shannon:
for watching!

Maegan:
side OBs

Dr. Shannon:
Obes,

Maegan:
in training

Dr. Shannon:
yeah.

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
it

Emma:
it

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
the audacity

Emma:
you're dastardly.

Maegan:
the injustice

Emma:
You're just disgusting.

Maegan:
i just i just

Emma:
You

Maegan:
cry

Emma:
just

Maegan:
like

Emma:
cry,

Maegan:
i

Emma:
like

Maegan:
think

Emma:
I think

Maegan:
i

Emma:
that's

Maegan:
cried

Emma:
my

Maegan:
more

Emma:
birth

Maegan:
than

Emma:
achievement.

Maegan:
she did And so

Emma:
Her

Maegan:
her crying

Emma:
crying

Maegan:
came

Emma:
came

Maegan:
later,

Emma:
later

Maegan:
I'm

Emma:
I think,

Maegan:
sure. But

Emma:
but

Maegan:
yes,

Emma:
yeah.

Maegan:
but she

Emma:
She

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
like,

Emma:
like.

Maegan:
I don't care.

Emma:
You came over to me and you said hey, I'm just letting you know because again they had taken my daughter's name is Josie They had taken Josie over to you know with a respirator take whatever the heck they call

Maegan:
Warmer.

Emma:
it the warmer

Maegan:
Yes.

Dr. Shannon:
No more.

Emma:
and they had They were you know working on her and trying to give and she was breathing that was the other thing I remember I kept looking over and I could see my husband was over there with them at the warming table and I just kept looking at his face to try to figure out, because she wasn't really crying, she wasn't really making a lot of noise, and so I'm trying to figure out, is she okay? And I was gauging it off of his face, he did not look concerned. So I was like, okay, they've got it, it's

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
probably fine. And then Megan, and he would come back over every so often, but Megan, you were good about coming over and explaining, here's what's happening, here's what they're doing, and at one point you said. I'm just letting you know they may end up having to take her to the NICU, not for very long but just to give her some breathing treatments or something like that. I remember looking at you and being like, I don't care. I mean,

Dr. Shannon:
Man.

Emma:
I remember the thought in my mind was whatever, I'll at least be able to sleep.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I mean I just was.

Dr. Shannon:
depleted in all

Emma:
Depleted

Dr. Shannon:
manners.

Emma:
in every way possible. And anyway, they didn't end up having, thankfully, to take her to the NICU. They were able to get her breathing pretty, she was fine. And so then at that point, they brought her over to me and it was myself and Taylor and her. And then yeah, and then, you know, there's also, so that was, I mean, he finished stitching me up. God knows how long later. And then, I don't know, it's all really a blur after that. I mean, it was again, none of the

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
things that I had hoped for. I had wanted to be able to curl up in my own bed and we were at a hospital and, oh, the other thing was too, was that Megan came up to me and this is another important piece, I think, for burning partners because Megan came up to me. Josie was born and she said just letting you know your husband's probably gonna need therapy after this

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
Do you remember saying that?

Maegan:
Yes.

Emma:
and He

Maegan:
There was,

Emma:
I talked, huh?

Maegan:
there was, I'm sorry. I would like to let the viewers know that yes, I have a cold, but yes, I'm also crying.

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Maegan:
There was a moment where you were sleeping and I was, I just kept crying, like, but I was like holding it together. So water was just like pouring out of my eyes. And I looked at your husband and we both were just like, this is not what we wanted. And he looked so scared.

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
Because you are very strong for, and I'm not just saying that, you really are. And you were just so broken. And we just didn't know, like so much had gone out of the window and Kenneth Stone didn't seem to be respecting many of our wishes. I just didn't know what was next. And so, and we were just so

Dr. Shannon:
Mmm.

Maegan:
tired.

Dr. Shannon:
Tired.

Maegan:
Like I cannot describe, like I'm very good at holding it together. I lose it in the parking lot. But I don't know, I can't remember. Like I didn't saw, but the water would not stop coming out of my eyes. But his face the whole time was just hurting. Like

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
hurting, mourning what wasn't happening and mourning what was happening. It just, and then just watching you was hard.

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
So he... Yes, I thought he is carrying the weight of the world and I don't think he knows how to process it. He doesn't even have anything to compare it to. Like he just has like Geena's class and what was presented as this is the norm. And then watching it goes, I'm sure there's, and there's also a security that whether we want to or not we buy into when

Emma:
Uh-uh.

Maegan:
we hire a home birth midwife and a doula, we kind of feel like, okay, we've done all our things. We've checked our boxes. We're going to be somewhat taken care of. And And those, even though I was present, like I had no power there. So I'm sure he felt exceptionally vulnerable, but also felt like he needed to be strong and.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
If

Maegan:
I just

Emma:
I just

Maegan:
watched

Emma:
watched

Maegan:
his,

Emma:
it,

Maegan:
because I mean,

Emma:
I mean

Maegan:
as

Emma:
as

Maegan:
a photographer,

Emma:
a photographer,

Maegan:
I know

Emma:
I know

Maegan:
the

Emma:
the

Maegan:
muscles

Emma:
muscles

Maegan:
of the

Emma:
of the

Maegan:
face.

Emma:
face.

Maegan:
And

Emma:
And

Maegan:
so

Emma:
so

Maegan:
I can,

Emma:
I didn't, so like,

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
I

Emma:
I

Maegan:
feel

Emma:
feel

Maegan:
things

Emma:
things

Maegan:
in

Emma:
in

Maegan:
my

Emma:
my

Maegan:
heart.

Emma:
heart.

Maegan:
If

Emma:
If

Maegan:
I

Emma:
I

Maegan:
read

Emma:
read

Maegan:
and

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
and

Maegan:
feel

Emma:
feel

Maegan:
energies,

Emma:
energy,

Maegan:
because

Emma:
because

Maegan:
I can

Emma:
I can

Maegan:
tell

Emma:
tell,

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
it

Emma:
it

Maegan:
helps

Emma:
helps

Maegan:
with

Emma:
with

Maegan:
photos

Emma:
photos, because

Maegan:
because I'm

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
like,

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
okay,

Emma:
okay,

Maegan:
wiggle

Emma:
wiggle

Maegan:
it

Emma:
it

Maegan:
out,

Emma:
out,

Maegan:
you

Emma:
you

Maegan:
know,

Emma:
know,

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
stuff

Emma:
stuff

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like

Maegan:
that.

Emma:
that.

Maegan:
So

Emma:
So

Maegan:
I'm

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
watching

Emma:
watching

Maegan:
him

Emma:
him

Maegan:
just

Emma:
go,

Maegan:
go

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
like milliseconds,

Emma:
millisecond

Maegan:
all

Emma:
all

Maegan:
of

Emma:
of

Maegan:
these

Emma:
these

Maegan:
emotions.

Emma:
emotions,

Maegan:
And

Emma:
and

Maegan:
it

Emma:
it's

Maegan:
was

Emma:
just

Maegan:
like,

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
I watched

Emma:
I watched

Maegan:
him literally

Emma:
him literally

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
swallow

Emma:
swallow

Maegan:
it down.

Emma:
it down.

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
Like

Emma:
Like,

Maegan:
just,

Emma:
just,

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
I thought,

Emma:
I thought,

Maegan:
okay,

Emma:
okay, this

Maegan:
this

Emma:
is

Maegan:
is going

Emma:
gonna

Maegan:
to come

Emma:
be

Maegan:
up.

Emma:
fun.

Maegan:
Like,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
so yes, he's

Emma:
And

Maegan:
gonna

Emma:
he

Maegan:
need.

Emma:
and he I mean a couple of things too I also we thought we were giving birth on Friday night So he was texting people and saying hey and you

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
know So he's not only fielding and I remember too afterwards a friend of mine said yeah We were all really worried like we thought

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
that you had died or something genuinely and it's so funny My response to that I was angry. I Was like no, I don't I could not have possibly been worried about what you guys were worried about in that moment. But I get it. I understand. But that was my husband having to field all of that and being

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
at the hospital while I'm sleeping trying to call parents. And you know, we've got my best friends and my parents have my location. So for all they see, oh my gosh, she's at WellStar right now. And they hadn't been given any information about what so he was also having to field all of that stuff. and I try to be strong for me, but he, I mean, it was traumatic for him in a different way. And I would say arguably more traumatic because he was more aware of what was happening and having

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
to watch me go through it. Whereas for me, it was just, I was so outside of myself at certain, at some of the worst parts

Dr. Shannon:
That's

Emma:
of

Dr. Shannon:
exactly

Emma:
it.

Dr. Shannon:
it. You're so... It's that otherworldly view where you're just in that kind of a little bit of survival mode, but that partner can... They're not going through quite what you're going through, but then they see it all. So they

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
experience it completely differently. So yeah. Now,

Emma:
Right.

Dr. Shannon:
how does your... Because you were obviously a psychotherapist before

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
becoming pregnant and that sort of thing. Do you think that your... education, your work, your line of work. Do you think that plays a part into how you were processing things as it was happening or even after the fact?

Emma:
it was happening I'm not sure and Maybe. It would be hard to know because some of it is so, you know, I mean, I think so much of for me personally being a therapist, it's just sort of, there are pieces of it that I obviously turn on and off, right, when I'm with a client versus when I'm just at home and with friends and things like that. But really a lot of it is sort of just, it has shifted the way that I view people and the

Dr. Shannon:
Mm.

Emma:
world and things like that. So I think, I'm sure it probably did inform how I was processing at the time, but certainly it did afterwards.

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
And actually a big piece of that, I think I had known, you know, I was somebody who prior to having, and actually I want to name this piece too in case anybody who listens to this might relate to this. I was somebody who was never super gung-ho about becoming a mom. I was... It was a slow burn for me to realize. I was never really anti-kid, but I was never, oh gosh, you know, baby crazy just loved the idea of pregnancy and whatever else. So for me, it was a slow burn of realizing, oh, I think I'm ready. Oh, I'm starting to feel a longing. This is new, this is different for me. And then I had the miscarriage and then the longing became even more pronounced and it felt like a sign from the universe in many ways to kind of help me be more and more ready and know it was what I wanted, though it was very. you know, painful and hard. But that when I became pregnant with Josie, I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, okay, this is what I want. But I was also so nervous about losing control of my body through pregnancy,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
losing control of my body through birth, and not even in terms of how it looked. I mean, maybe a little bit of that. But for me, just... I carry a lot of my personal anxiety somatically in my body. So anyway, I had been nervous about all of those things and when I was in labor and it was just taking forever at home for no apparent reason because it seemed like the baby was in a good position and I was doing all the things right, what everyone kept asking me was are you sure there's nothing emotional holding you back? And I mean, I was like, I mean, I'm terrified to become a mom.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
But is everybody not like kind of scared of actually what this means and giving birth? I mean, is that really going to keep a baby inside me? And you know, I don't know why my labor ended up being the way that it was, but I do. I do look back on it now and I. Even when I have my second child, which I would like to, you know, I mean, just do it, I don't have control over whether it will actually happen or not. I think about, there will be a lot to process then. There will be a lot to process going into doing this a second time and then the decisions that we make about, are we gonna even try for a home birth again? Are we just gonna do hospital? Am I gonna just maybe? You know, I don't know, but all that to say, I think I... I walked away from it feeling so... There was this question in my mind, though everybody kept telling me this wasn't true, that there has been this part of me that had felt like maybe I had failed somehow, and that maybe the problem was that I didn't. Wanted badly enough. I wasn't excited enough for her to be coming out of me and that that's why she hadn't come out and I couldn't I Couldn't say for sure even now if that's what it is, but I do even now sometimes feel this sense I mean, I love her so much and I look at her and I think if I had known Maybe it would have been shorter like maybe I could have gotten you out faster So that's been a layer over the processing too. It's like. All these pieces that I... There's just still so many unanswered questions and always kind of will be. And I remember Megan,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
when you came over to do your home visit after the birth, and you had said, you know, there's a lot that we don't know when you said second births often clarify first births. And so it will be interesting to see, you know, if and when I have a second child, does it feel very different? Is there a different level of excitement or is there a level of just... a completely different kind of anxiety after this labor to do it again. I don't know. I feel like I've only ever heard women talk about, oh, so excited my baby's coming, whether it was I'm so ready to not be pregnant anymore or like the, I wanna meet my baby. And just to normalize, like that was not my experience. It came. later and I didn't also, I mean I'm grateful I really didn't have postpartum depression or things like that, I'm sorry. I didn't have postpartum depression or things like that. I was actually able to bond with my baby pretty quickly. But the other piece too, I'm sorry if I'm rambling, is that then because I had been in labor in so long and I had spiked a fever, they had diagnosed me with an amniotic infection. So they then kept us in the hospital for about five days.

Dr. Shannon:
I was about to ask how long, yeah,

Emma:
Yeah, I gave

Dr. Shannon:
were

Emma:
birth

Dr. Shannon:
you there?

Emma:
to her. Yeah, I gave birth to her on Saturday. And I guess... We came home on Wednesday.

Dr. Shannon:
Okay.

Emma:
And that was because she had slightly elevated, some protein was elevated in some tests that they apparently normally don't even do, and they did. And she had no other signs of any kind of infection, but they made us do a culture and weight and then give her all these antibiotics and they kept taking her away from us and. We were right next door to the nursery and so we could hear her like screaming in there as they're trying to stick her and get blood drawn and she had to have an IV port put in her head so she had this ginormous thing on top of her head and it was just like thing on thing on thing that we didn't

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
want and then at that point we were like we want to go home we think our baby's fine. But then we knew that if we went home and we discharged AMA, that insurance might not cover our stay. And so we were essentially trapped at the hospital and...

Maegan:
which is a lie by the way.

Emma:
Is it?

Maegan:
Just so you know, it's a common thing that hospitals use to scare parents

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
to stay. There is no such thing as insurance not covering because you're MAA, right? A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A

Emma:
Oh really? Oh that's funny because I used to work at a psych hospital and they very much believed that was true there. But that might have

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
been their way of scaring patients into staying

Maegan:
You

Emma:
there also.

Dr. Shannon:
into staying too, yeah.

Maegan:
No, it's a common scare tactic, I think is what it's called.

Emma:
Well,

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm...

Emma:
it's effective.

Maegan:
Because it's

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Maegan:
usually the nurses that tell you that. It's not like an insurance lady actually comes in to confirm.

Emma:
Well,

Maegan:
It's

Emma:
the

Maegan:
your

Emma:
nurses

Maegan:
nurse.

Emma:
all were like, well, we don't know. I mean, you know, maybe.

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
And then we had nurses who would say, well, oh, I had women who had said like, well, this is why we don't wait so long to come to the hospital after our water breaks. I mean, it was just like,

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah,

Emma:
but

Dr. Shannon:
you were

Emma:
we

Dr. Shannon:
like,

Emma:
also.

Dr. Shannon:
yeah, like kick me while I'm down, please.

Maegan:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
I'm like, thank you, that's very helpful.

Dr. Shannon:
I think

Emma:
So.

Dr. Shannon:
everything that you're saying though with the words and emotions and thoughts and feelings that you're using to describe how that felt after your first birth, like it's all like, I mean, my first birth didn't go as well too. And I'm like, I'm over here like tearing up too, because I'm like, I felt all of those things. Like that failure thing, could I have done something different? I too was like afraid. I was like, I think I had a lot of fear in that birth. So how did that fear hold it back? And how did that? play a part, but I think it's beautiful that you mentioned that Megan had said that second births often clarify the first birth. And I know for me that was very much so. Again, not always the case, but I just, I'm thankful that you are expressing and sharing those words because they're true. They're true to you and they're true to a lot of people that have that go through birth that it's not. This is not how I thought it was gonna go.

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
And it needs to be, I don't know, it needs to be talked about in that safe space of not scaring other people and scare tactics with birth, but like this was genuinely me, my thoughts, my feelings, and how I processed it, you know?

Emma:
Mm-hmm. And that's the part I think where the birth photography comes in and that quote that you shared at the very beginning of that, I don't remember how I put it. I think I'm probably far more eloquent in writing than in speaking, but I think that seeing the photos, so Megan sent the photos, I don't know, a week later or something like that, and I remember you sent the. link to them or whatever it was and you said open them when you are ready and I got them and I cried hadn't even looked at them yet got the email cried and I was just like I can't I can't do it

Dr. Shannon:
Uh

Emma:
I

Dr. Shannon:
huh.

Emma:
don't want to look at it I don't know and I thought initially I'm not going to look at these for weeks but I think it was only maybe the next day or something it was not that long and

Maegan:
Hahaha!

Emma:
I and I

Dr. Shannon:
Ew.

Emma:
was like okay I'm going to look at them and as I was looking at them it was so cathartic. And this is where I think some of my trauma education, this goes back to the quote from the blog post of trauma, I know from my career and I know from being a trauma therapist, trauma is stored in a part of the brain that doesn't have access to language. And it's like, I know that logically, but I had been living it with Taylor, my husband, where we would just look at each other. I mean, I remember after the baby was born, we got wheeled into the recovery room or whatever it was, and we just looked at each other and we said, it feels like we just came out of battle together.

Dr. Shannon:
That was one of the other quotes I was gonna read as well too. That connection that you had with them. Because I know when I read that, like reading your whole blog, I was just like, yes, these are the words I was trying to say all

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
along. Like it was, that's why it was so impactful and beautiful for me. And the same exact thing, which you don't, I didn't expect for birth to feel

Emma:
No.

Dr. Shannon:
like battle.

Emma:
And then how are you

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
supposed to explain it to somebody else who wasn't there? And even my midwife wasn't. She didn't get to be there for the last

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
12 hours of it. And I know she hated that and Megan was keeping her updated on things and whatever else, but it's just, it was me, Taylor, and Megan who were there for the whole thing. And really just me and Taylor, because Megan, you know, wasn't there for the four or five days that we were there after the birth.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
And so yeah, there was that piece and that was all we knew to say to each other. And my husband, my poor husband too, I remember when he was first holding Josie in the hospital, he's looking at her and he is like, Emma, I'm gonna be honest, I'm afraid I'm gonna resent her for this.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
And then I watched him. I have like little photos on my phone. I was, you know, in my bed, just couldn't, I could not walk for days. And the healing process is long. That's another. piece of all of this. I mean, I'm still healing from the tears and all that stuff. But and not to mention from the trauma, I think too,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I went to see a pelvic floor PT this year and she said, you know, anatomically, nothing is wrong. Like your stitches are actually pretty good. She said, probably carrying quite a bit of trauma in

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah,

Emma:
your pelvic

Dr. Shannon:
and you

Emma:
floor.

Dr. Shannon:
mentioned that

Emma:
And

Dr. Shannon:
somatically as well too. So yes, most

Emma:
yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
definitely. It's

Emma:
So

Dr. Shannon:
so

Emma:
all

Dr. Shannon:
real.

Emma:
of these, all of these different pieces and So anyway, I went a little bit on the tangent in terms of the, oh, I was gonna say when

Dr. Shannon:
You

Emma:
I

Dr. Shannon:
were

Emma:
saw

Dr. Shannon:
looking

Emma:
Taylor

Dr. Shannon:
at the...

Emma:
holding the

Dr. Shannon:
when

Emma:
baby,

Dr. Shannon:
you saw him,

Emma:
I was

Dr. Shannon:
yeah.

Emma:
like,

Dr. Shannon:
Ha ha

Emma:
oh, he's not gonna resent her. It was

Dr. Shannon:
ha!

Emma:
very quickly cleared

Dr. Shannon:
He

Emma:
away.

Dr. Shannon:
had little

Emma:
And same

Dr. Shannon:
heart

Emma:
thing,

Dr. Shannon:
eyes. Ha ha

Emma:
yeah,

Dr. Shannon:
ha!

Emma:
and same thing for me, and thank God, but

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
we do. I'm like, you know, if I ever needed to hold this against her, I absolutely could. And I will say something that was kind of cool is that she was born. She was born on one of my good friends from high school's birthday. And his he's Indian and his name is Naveen. And I from what I understand, Naveen means new moon. And she was born on a new moon.

Dr. Shannon:
the

Emma:
So

Dr. Shannon:
new

Emma:
that was

Dr. Shannon:
moon.

Emma:
cool.

Dr. Shannon:
Oh that's fun.

Emma:
But I'm like, OK, that's fine. If you wanted to be born on a new moon, you could have just started coming, you know, like the day before.

Maegan:
Hehehehe

Emma:
So

Dr. Shannon:
Exactly.

Emma:
many days before. But yes, so when I saw the pictures, in terms of the trauma being stored in a part of the brain without language, it was like I felt, I felt that so clearly, this thing that I know in working with clients. But it was this moment where I, it was like it was touching on something in me that I, again, didn't even have. words for access to language around and it helped with the timeline. The birth was so, the labor was so long that to see, I mean you look through it if you're looking at the photos chronologically you see the lighting changing. It's night and then it's day and then it's night again

Dr. Shannon:
No.

Emma:
and then I'm in the hospital and you see also me go, I mean I see myself unraveling throughout the

Dr. Shannon:
Mmm.

Emma:
photos also. If I see the pictures of myself after she's born and then scroll back up to the photos at the beginning, I'm like, I mean, I look like two different people in some

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah,

Emma:
ways.

Dr. Shannon:
you're like, she had no clue, you know?

Emma:
I know. So yeah, the seeing the photos just felt so... um, clarifying. And I was just so, you know, I thought that I was having birth photos done to remember this special moment. And I will say, I mean, I still go back and look back on them every so often. And we just a couple of days ago were at the anniversary of this labor, and my daughter turned one on Sunday. And, um,

Dr. Shannon:
And

Emma:
mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
then we're doing this interview now. Oh my gosh, and it was a crazy

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
full moon

Maegan:
I'm going

Dr. Shannon:
Wednesday

Maegan:
to go to bed.

Dr. Shannon:
night. Oh my god. Sorry. I'm gonna throw all those things in there. Oh, that's very cathartic. Okay now I have chills Sorry

Emma:
Yeah, so anyway, I mean looking at the photos, sometimes I look at the photos and I think, oh that was special and that was sweet, you know, whatever, all this is nice, these are nice things, but the biggest thing for me personally, you know, I it's just I thought that I was having photos taken. so that I would have these, you know, almost like you would have wedding pictures taken. It's this significant day and you wanna like, look beautiful and have this special family moments. And for me, it was really more. Um, it's just been a way to process and make sense of, and also too, for the people that I have chosen to share the photos with, you know, and there's some on the blog post, but there's obviously far more total. It's also a way for me to kind of let them in on what it was like in a way that I never would have been able to describe to them. So That's maybe all I have for right now. Megan, what are you thinking?

Maegan:
No, I think you were able to. Explain it perfectly. It is, and so I'm sitting here listening to us and I'm realizing we're not, we're saying a lot without saying anything because there's no real way for us to describe what it was like. And so as a birth worker, we listen to these types of podcasts or lessons and we go, okay, as a doula, what would

Emma:
What would

Maegan:
I have

Emma:
I

Maegan:
done

Emma:
have

Maegan:
differently?

Emma:
done differently?

Maegan:
As a doula,

Emma:
As a doer,

Maegan:
what

Emma:
what

Maegan:
can

Emma:
can

Maegan:
I learn

Emma:
I learn?

Maegan:
from, sorry. the snot coming out of my nose right now.

Dr. Shannon:
Hehehehehehe

Maegan:
And

Emma:
And

Maegan:
none

Emma:
none

Maegan:
of

Emma:
of

Maegan:
us

Emma:
us

Maegan:
packed

Emma:
back

Maegan:
tissues,

Emma:
tissues,

Maegan:
I'm

Emma:
I'm

Maegan:
noticing.

Emma:
noticing.

Maegan:
That was a dual mistake. But we listen to these things to learn and I'm thinking to myself as we're talking, we're not really able

Emma:
able

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
explain

Emma:
explain

Maegan:
what

Emma:
what

Maegan:
it was

Emma:
it was

Maegan:
like

Emma:
like

Maegan:
and

Emma:
and

Maegan:
why

Emma:
why.

Maegan:
I was

Emma:
I was

Maegan:
crying

Emma:
crying

Maegan:
the whole

Emma:
the whole

Maegan:
time,

Emma:
time

Maegan:
why

Emma:
why

Maegan:
your

Emma:
your

Maegan:
husband's

Emma:
husband

Maegan:
broken,

Emma:
broke

Maegan:
because

Emma:
it because

Maegan:
just

Emma:
just

Maegan:
write

Emma:
write

Maegan:
it down

Emma:
it down

Maegan:
on paper,

Emma:
on paper.

Maegan:
you had

Emma:
You

Maegan:
a

Emma:
had

Maegan:
really

Emma:
a really

Maegan:
long

Emma:
long

Maegan:
labor,

Emma:
labor

Maegan:
we

Emma:
to transfer.

Maegan:
transferred.

Emma:
That's how you do it.

Maegan:
you had a vaginal delivery. We could simplify

Emma:
Simplify

Maegan:
it

Emma:
it

Maegan:
down

Emma:
now like

Maegan:
like

Emma:
that.

Maegan:
that. It's

Emma:
It's

Maegan:
so

Emma:
so

Maegan:
much

Emma:
much

Maegan:
more

Emma:
more

Maegan:
than

Emma:
than

Maegan:
that.

Emma:
that. Like,

Maegan:
It

Emma:
it

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was

Maegan:
the emotional

Emma:
the emotional

Maegan:
roller

Emma:
roller

Maegan:
coaster,

Emma:
coaster.

Maegan:
I feel like. And we

Emma:
And

Maegan:
could

Emma:
we could

Maegan:
never

Emma:
never.

Maegan:
explain that to someone, but maybe

Emma:
Maybe

Maegan:
with, like you were saying,

Emma:
we

Maegan:
with

Emma:
can

Maegan:
the

Emma:
all

Maegan:
visuals, we can just

Emma:
just be individuals.

Maegan:
be like,

Emma:
We can

Maegan:
do you see

Emma:
just

Maegan:
the difference

Emma:
be

Maegan:
in

Emma:
like,

Maegan:
these

Emma:
we need

Maegan:
two

Emma:
to

Maegan:
women?

Emma:
give

Maegan:
This

Emma:
thanks

Maegan:
is where I

Emma:
to

Maegan:
came

Emma:
them. And

Maegan:
to

Emma:
this is

Maegan:
the

Emma:
where I

Maegan:
end

Emma:
came to the

Maegan:
of

Emma:
end of

Maegan:
myself.

Emma:
myself. This is when

Maegan:
This

Emma:
I honestly

Maegan:
is

Emma:
felt

Maegan:
when

Emma:
like

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
giving

Maegan:
I honestly

Emma:
up. This is when

Maegan:
felt

Emma:
I

Maegan:
like

Emma:
didn't

Maegan:
giving

Emma:
care about

Maegan:
up. This

Emma:
anything.

Maegan:
is when I didn't

Emma:
And

Maegan:
care about anything. And

Emma:
you

Maegan:
yes, that's normal

Emma:
look normal

Maegan:
in

Emma:
in

Maegan:
most

Emma:
those works.

Maegan:
births.

Emma:
We all have to come

Maegan:
We

Emma:
to the end of

Maegan:
all

Emma:
ourselves. But again,

Maegan:
have to come

Emma:
not

Maegan:
to the end of ourselves, but again,

Emma:
over 50

Maegan:
not

Emma:
something

Maegan:
over

Emma:
hours.

Maegan:
60

Emma:
And I

Maegan:
something

Emma:
was

Maegan:
hours.

Emma:
with you.

Maegan:
And I was with you,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
I believe 42,

Emma:
50, you were

Maegan:
44.

Emma:
with me 50.

Maegan:
Okay,

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
well, you're very gracious. I

Emma:
I think it

Maegan:
was

Emma:
was. I felt

Maegan:
like, I think you're

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
like, I felt like it was

Emma:
like

Maegan:
40 something.

Emma:
it was. You said it was your second longest labor you've been a part of. That

Maegan:
That

Emma:
you

Maegan:
is true.

Emma:
have, yeah.

Maegan:
I do remember that. Because the number one was like 60 hours. But it, yeah, so that's the only thing I would add. It's just, it's really difficult to describe what it was minute by minute, the roller coaster, but the photos, you can look through them, or your words. There's nothing we could have done differently. We did every, like, it's just. even when you think of doing something, doing everything, and it not working, the emotional aspect of that.

Emma:
And the combination of having people say, you're so strong and oh you're so strong and even my husband, the way he was trying to make sense of it after was, well you were so strong, you were so good at handling labor that you couldn't actually let her come out. And even that, it's this sort of double bind. On the one hand it's this compliment of, you're so strong. And on the other hand, the message I'm hearing is, you are too strong.

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm

Emma:
And so it's just this like, geez Louise, I mean

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I can't. I can't win. The other thing I'll say too, this doesn't so much have to do with the pictures, but in terms of the processing of labors in general after the fact, I had two or three clients who were pregnant around the same time as me, who gave birth around the same time as me. I was actually the last of all of them. And one of them I haven't seen since she gave birth. She kind of just stopped doing therapy after she became a mom, but the other ones, they were both traumatic births also. And then

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Emma:
I had a friend that I saw who, he's a man, but his wife had given birth a month before I did, and I saw him maybe five or six months in, both of our children's lives. And talking, what I've found is that, it's like people do this thing, and so I've found this to be true of both birthing partners and birthing people, where they immediately start to minimize what their experience was. that you

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
do, you start to water it down. And I felt the need to do that too, right? Because how do you explain it to somebody? Like, you could sit here and say, well, it wasn't that traumatic of a birth because I didn't have to have an emergency C-section. I mean, it's like,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
yeah, I just had to transfer and it was long. You're right, on paper. It's like, how do I explain to somebody what that would be like? And I found other people doing the same where clearly it's just not something we talk about. And so there's this immediate attempt to try to make sense of it in a way that actually ends up minimizing and likely storing the trauma inside of us. That's not actually allowing it to be released. And so that has been the other piece for me that to be able to offer women a platform to. get to acknowledge how difficult their birthing experiences are when they are because they're not always. And I mean the other piece I genuinely do feel very passionate about because of what my husband's experience was is birthing partners. When I was talking to the friend who was a man he was I said yeah so how did you guys's labor go and he said oh Yeah, it was fine. And he starts telling me about it. And the more he's telling me about it, I was like, hey, that sounds really hard. And I remember him saying,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
yeah, I mean, it doesn't seem like it should have been that hard, but like it kind of was.

Dr. Shannon:
Mmm

Emma:
And again,

Dr. Shannon:
that

Emma:
I'm

Dr. Shannon:
right

Emma:
sitting

Dr. Shannon:
there

Emma:
here.

Dr. Shannon:
what you said it doesn't seem like it should be that hard, but it was so it was you

Emma:
So it

Dr. Shannon:
know

Emma:
was.

Dr. Shannon:
So so it was yeah

Emma:
And so that's where I think, what were we gonna say?

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
I think that, I mean, I feel like I'm saying this and it's stupid, because this is like your whole job, but I think people are not comfortable with grief in general. And so, because they're not comfortable with other people's grief, they're not comfortable with their own. Because we're not comfortable with other people's grief, we think they can't hold the weight of our story. And

Dr. Shannon:
Hmm.

Maegan:
like I said, on paper, it might look like your birth was okay. It was not ideal, but it wasn't the end of the world. but I think that there is a lot of weight in the world of long suffering. And that's what I feel like was difficult to watch and experience with your birth was, yes, it was long, but you were suffering. It doesn't

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
matter how you were suffering, there was suffering, emotionally, physically, whatever. And that's enough. It doesn't have to be where we're like, and then you lost your leg. It

Emma:
It

Dr. Shannon:
Right.

Maegan:
doesn't

Emma:
doesn't

Maegan:
have

Emma:
have

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
be

Emma:
be

Maegan:
that,

Emma:
that.

Maegan:
that's

Emma:
That's

Maegan:
enough.

Emma:
enough.

Maegan:
It's

Emma:
It's

Maegan:
enough

Emma:
enough

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
say

Emma:
say

Maegan:
you

Emma:
you

Maegan:
don't

Emma:
don't

Maegan:
have

Emma:
have

Maegan:
to

Emma:
to

Maegan:
understand

Emma:
understand

Maegan:
exactly

Emma:
it.

Maegan:
what I felt. I'm sorry that you're uncomfortable by my story, but I am happy that we're in a society that we are starting to talk more about suffering and grief and pain, particularly around the birth space. You touched base, I don't know if it was in our chat or in the blog post where... I feel like it was the blog post, but please, oh my gosh, I didn't sleep last night, don't quote me on this. In the end, you were talking about how we needed to talk about it more, we need

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Maegan:
to talk about our births more, we need to support each other more in that, and that starts with, as you were saying, not minimizing it.

Emma:
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
it starts with making the choice to talk about it. And I mean, that speaks to so many aspects of how our culture just handles birth poorly and supports postpartum so poorly

Dr. Shannon:
Postpartum.

Emma:
and things like that. I mean, it's a much larger conversation, but I think to piggyback off of what you're saying about grief, there is also something called ambiguous grief. And the original place that I heard about it is with the idea of when people have loved ones who maybe go missing. and that there's never maybe

Dr. Shannon:
There's no

Emma:
a body

Dr. Shannon:
closure.

Emma:
found. There's no closure, there's nothing tangible. And I would argue in a way, I know that it's different, but I would argue that in a way, a difficult, traumatic labor followed by a healthy child is another example of that. Because again,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
you come away from this incredibly devastating experience that then is. so joyful and brings life and your child is fine and then you're just off to the races in parenthood.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm. And you're trying to balance that grief because you lost that birth that you had envisioned and hoped for and worked really hard for, but yet you also were experiencing this massive joy of this new life at the same time. So then you're balancing those emotions, but you're still mourning what you did lose. You did lose something, you

Emma:
And

Dr. Shannon:
know?

Emma:
people don't want to hear that you're mourning

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
when you're...

Dr. Shannon:
Oh, but hey baby, you were healthy mom

Emma:
Yes!

Dr. Shannon:
and baby were healthy and it's like I Still lost some you know, I don't

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
that's tough. That's so tough

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
Definitely still morning

Emma:
So I think that there is, I mean, I guess overall, I just, I think there is such a. For somebody who really didn't care about birth or labor or things like that before I got pregnant, I'm so grateful to have gone through it just simply to recognize, I don't know, just the beauty of the feminine and what even being a pregnant woman embodies in terms of just the divine feminine and this space that is so, this place inside of ourselves and this space that is so sacred, but within that, it is both the sacredness of this, the magic of what it is to bring life into the world, but also this, the sacredness that is the the pain and the tenderness and the wounds that we can hold here in these very quiet places. And I just, yeah, it's something that, like you're saying, Megan, you know, we are starting to talk about it more. We're not talking about it nearly enough, even

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
still. And we talk about pregnancy and birth as if it's just a breeze and to no problem. And that's

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
just such a... That's something that doesn't leave us actually getting to live and walk in alignment with what's truly happening. And that, in and of itself, is a form of trauma.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
If that makes sense. Because what you're telling yourself is happening is different than what is actually happening and it... Even if it's in subtle... ways can cause, and you'll see it come out. It's like being a pregnant woman, you're this lightning rod for women to tell you about their birthing experiences. And usually they're traumatic. And again,

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
it's this other example of, wow, there's a lot that's being left unprocessed in us.

Dr. Shannon:
I was gonna say they need a space to process it. We need a space to process it. Maybe not putting it on someone who is pregnant trying

Emma:
No,

Dr. Shannon:
to

Emma:
please

Dr. Shannon:
go through

Emma:
not.

Dr. Shannon:
that journey.

Emma:
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon:
But yes, definitely we need more of those spaces. Has this changed? I know you mentioned a little bit about

Emma:
about

Dr. Shannon:
how there

Emma:
how

Dr. Shannon:
were

Emma:
they were

Dr. Shannon:
a couple

Emma:
assembled,

Dr. Shannon:
of families

Emma:
same

Dr. Shannon:
you were

Emma:
as

Dr. Shannon:
working

Emma:
you were

Dr. Shannon:
with that

Emma:
looking

Dr. Shannon:
were

Emma:
at

Dr. Shannon:
pregnant

Emma:
those.

Dr. Shannon:
at

Emma:
Okay.

Dr. Shannon:
the same time as you, but has this changed or shaped anything with your therapy work? and the clients that you work with are just, how has this impacted you?

Emma:
Yeah, it has. I mean, I have had a thought since having this experience and I've been like, you know, maybe I want to transition my practice into being maybe a little bit more for, um, around the birth world. But

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
I have also decided I don't really want to, I'm going to sit with that a while longer and I don't

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
want to do that. I don't want to do that really intentionally until after I'm done having children because what I don't want is to be sitting here and holding all of these traumatic

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
birth stories and then still have to continue giving birth myself. So that's more in the future.

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
But it certainly has, there's so much of an intentionality when there's women in my practice who are pregnant or have had children recently or things like that. that I am able to hold space for. And I think in general as a clinician, again, it's just one of those experiences that regardless of if it's anything to do with birth for the client. It just, it's an expansion of... the human experience and how we experience pain. And again, like it's this. It is, I've been trying, I've tried to be very intentional about how I've processed this intended to this in myself since giving birth. And so my hope within that is that what it has done has actually made me in general a more whole person and a more maybe. gracious or understanding or that it has expanded my ability to hold space for people whatever

Dr. Shannon:
Mm-hmm.

Emma:
their trauma might be, particularly trauma that happens when we're adults as opposed to, you know, childhood trauma,

Dr. Shannon:
Yeah.

Emma:
which is its own thing. I hope that answers your question.

Dr. Shannon:
No, it does. It does. You definitely have a way with words, my friend. You definitely, definitely do.

Emma:
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon:
Well, I've got the, we've got the blog

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
because Megan had shared with me, I have the link there. I'm gonna put that in the show notes. I highly, highly recommend our listeners go read it and look at the images that you so, both of you so graciously, you know, shared and put out there. It's so wonderful. Megan, remind us where people can connect with you, like Facebook, Instagram, who are you?

Maegan:
Megan Hall.com

Emma:
Megan,

Maegan:
spelled

Emma:
M-A-E.

Maegan:
M-A-E-G-A-N. Yes, Megan

Emma:
Megan.

Maegan:
Hall.com. And then that'll

Dr. Shannon:
Yep. Awesome.

Maegan:
link to Instagram.

Dr. Shannon:
And all of your accounts. And I'm going to put it in the show notes too. And Emma, if you want to share your office where you live, where people can connect with you, if that's something you want to

Emma:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon:
share, we'd appreciate

Emma:
I'm not

Dr. Shannon:
it.

Emma:
gonna share where I live because

Dr. Shannon:
Well, no,

Emma:
you know,

Dr. Shannon:
yeah.

Emma:
I'm

Dr. Shannon:
That

Emma:
just

Dr. Shannon:
just

Emma:
kidding.

Dr. Shannon:
means like the

Emma:
I'm

Dr. Shannon:
area. Yeah, no,

Emma:
just

Dr. Shannon:
Metro

Emma:
messing with

Dr. Shannon:
Atlanta.

Emma:
you Yeah, I live in metro Atlanta and my office is in Binings, which is kind of in the midst of Smyrna Buckhead whatever But I also do virtual sessions And I don't have social media or things like that But I think let me check and make sure that what I'm saying is true. I think my website is Emma Carter LPC.com Yeah, it is

Dr. Shannon:
Okay, well, I'll put that in the show notes too so people can connect with you as well. So thank you so, so much. I think this might be one of the, an interview that I got the most out of. I don't

Emma:
Okay.

Dr. Shannon:
know. I very deeply resonate with everything that you have said, Emma. So I really appreciate you being able to come on and being open and vulnerable. and sharing this because I know this is what we need. We need these processing of these stories and stuff. So, and again, Megan, you're just awesome. You just rock. Thank you for taking all the pictures and doing all the things and supporting all the moms. So thank you so much and tune in next week for a brand new episode.