Ep 107: Managing Birth Expectations: Bridging the Gap

In today’s episode, Doula Rachael and Dr. Shannon discuss managing expectations as it pertains to birth (and beyond). As a doula and a prenatal chiropractor, we are intimately involved in helping women navigate not only the physical side of birth, but the emotional aspect too. In this episode, they cover:

• Diving deeper into how you were informed about childbirth.
• How to prepare for childbirth in a meaningful and effective way.
• How to navigate the birthing process and the importance of “being the bamboo”.
• How the gap between our expectations and reality can lead to guilt and shame about our birth and how to reduce the gap.
• How your worth is not dependent upon how you give birth.

Resources mentioned in the episode:
Episode 86: Important Things to Consider When Choosing a Care Provider
Episode 76: Five Benefits of Labor Doula Support
Episode 66: Prenatal and Postpartum Pelvic Floor Therapy
Episode 46: Role of Chiropractic and Childbirth Education
Episode 44: You’re Not Alone with Shannon Weist, Perinatal Mental Health Counselor
Episode 33: Building Your Birth Support Team
Episode 17: All About Birth Doulas with Rachael
Episode 19: All About Prenatal Chiropractic Care with Dr. Shannon
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Transcript

Speaker 1  0:06  

Hello hello friends you are listening to the Allied birth podcast. You've got both hosts here today. So do a Rachel is joining me Dr. Shannon and we are chatting today about another birthday topic and today's topic is a little bit a little bit deep managing

Speaker 2  0:26  

our birth expectations.

Speaker 1  0:30  

Managing the gap between expectations and reality when it comes to birth. We are talking about this today because we are both birth workers. Rachel is a doula prenatal chiropractor and we deal a lot in the birth world. And I feel that we both deal a lot in helping folks process their birth expectations because we become part of their birth support team. And we listen to their thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires for this birth outcome and we know that how we feel about our birth impacts. Our postpartum journey impacts our thoughts, feelings and emotions about us it impacts how we travel into parenthood. And so it's really important that we discuss our birth expectations and then the reality of that. And so in this episode, we're gonna go through a little bit why that's important. You know, the aspect of your worth is not based on how your birth unfolds, but the big one that we're going to touch on today. But talk a little bit about shame. A little bit about Brene Brown, and going into where these expectations come from, and what are some tools and things that we can use to manage some of those birth expectations. So I'm excited to dive a little bit in this episode to date you, Rachel. Hello, and welcome to the library podcast. We are so glad you're here. I'm Dr. Janet, the prenatal chiropractic

Speaker 3  1:47  

and I'm Rachel a birth doula and childbirth educator and we are the team behind the aligned birth podcast.

Speaker 1  1:52  

Between us we have experienced necessary in birth VBAC, hospital births and home birth. Our personal experiences led us to where we are today

Speaker 3  1:57  

we share a lot in common. We are friends from high school who reconnected through our work. We both changed career paths after the birth of our own children. We line up with talking about health and birth and they're both constituted

Speaker 1  2:06  

This podcast was created to share conversations and interviews about topics on pregnancy and birth and motherhood and the importance of a healthy body and mind through all goal is to bring the fun, interesting and helpful conversations that excite you and make you want to learn more.

Speaker 3  2:16  

We believe that when you are aligned in body, mind and your intuition you can conquer anything. We hope you've enjoyed the episode.

Speaker 3  2:30  

Absolutely been looking forward to this conversation. It's something that we talk a lot about in our work as we listen to with the traders. And it's something that I have worked on and learn a lot as I was navigating, pregnancy and birth and my birth and then postpartum and then all the things that come afterwards. So I think it's really an important thing to talk about, about like, what are your expectations, but it's okay to have expectations, but like, what are they informed by? How are you preparing to meet them? Like what are your things in place to help you achieve what you want out of this birth and it's not about like birthing a right or wrong way or doing it any sort of way. It's about how you feel, I think ultimately would try and extract like if someone says, I want an unmedicated birth, that's my expectation is like, why do you want that and my favorite, my field labor on appeal, that concoction of hormones that comes after babies, I want to be like, fooling around. That's what we're gonna lean into. How do we protect that? How do we get there, right? And then how do we navigate it when things aren't going as you would hope for and all that is to protect that mental and emotional space for how you feel about to work afterwards? It's not just saying I want this thing and then it's not happening and then how you feel like it's so much more complete than that. So I'm really looking forward to sort of breaking it down because I do think it's multi layered. I think it's an important conversation and something that I after my pregnancies first I'd like carried on throughout my entire life as parent and I'm married, and all of that and I want to impart on my own children. So I'm very, very excited. I think we talked about it kind of transcends into the rest of life. I think that's what's so cool about them now. But before we get started, we do have an ask of our listeners. So between the topic research, or one on one and guest interviews, recording, editing, posting every week we've been posting every week now for over 100 episodes. This podcast takes time, effort and resources to share with you every week and we're so humbled and grateful for all of our listeners and the reviews we have received letting us know that this podcast has made a difference in their life is so inspiring to us. I want to get it back I focus on content it informs, inspires, entertains and is mindful of your time. One way to accomplish this is through direct listener support. So your support publisher grow, reach more listeners just like you and with intentionality and consistency, we will slowly and surely create a ripple effect and that's what's important to us is the ripple effect. I'm gonna keep doing this one like slow steady wins the race type of approach with that each positive we do each thing we share that that person takes it and does something like that. That's the ripple effect. We're going for us and we have a long lasting impact over the people and so thank you 60 seconds you can go to the wind, the wind first off by sprout.com. It's also linked in our show notes for asking for $5 a month but you can do $3 You can put your contribution as a monthly contribution as much or as little as you want your choice. But you know, if we're part of your day or your week and you love what we're doing, we would greatly appreciate it if you visited on my birthday calm or use the link in the show notes and support us in any way you can today. We greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 1  4:49  

Yes, because we love doing this. We don't have any conversations and we want to keep doing it and keep conversing and keeping consistent with it. So yes, yes. So again, today we're talking about managing the gap between expectations and reality as it pertains to birth right. But as Rachel said, like, definitely, definitely life happens. And so these are tools or ways and things to think about in all other aspects, you know, managing marriage expectations, managing parenting, expectations, managing friendship, expectations, managing work, I mean, the list goes on and on. So, again, we're gonna focus specifically on birth. And again, when we're talking about this, this comes up what comes up in the opposite way. And someone may not necessarily say something specific, like what I'm gonna say in a minute, but it's the underlying tone. It's what I hear. And that's where it's like, okay, what can we where can we impact this so that our expectation can be reality or as close to that as possible? And a lot of times it's more of I will be happy if my birth goes a certain way. So they may not be saying that but it's like, again, the aspect of, well, I really want an unmedicated birth, I really want to be back. I don't want to tear like it's something in those aspects of, I don't, I don't wanna get an epidural. I do I get it, whatever. It always comes back down to it sounds like that your happiness, your self worth is going to be based on these outcomes. And that's not setting us up for success. But now, as birth workers, we look at that as okay, why do you want that certain outcome? What does it mean to you? What are those thoughts, feelings and emotions and then what can we do to set you up for success in a realistic way, but not put so much of that worth based on that outcome that we can't necessarily control? It's a very, it's a touchy area, you know, it really is because even to everything that we're gonna talk about today, it doesn't guarantee that you're going to have you those expectations are going to be fulfilled, you know, you can still do all of these things and have some aspects. They're not fulfilled, which is tough. So that we're talking about, yeah,

Speaker 3  6:39  

yeah, no, I think it's so important to understand and want expectations, to have preferences to have desires for your birth. I want people giving birth to look very intentional and deeply at the process and take it seriously. So this is not to say don't expect expectations so that you won't be disappointed.

Unknown Speaker  6:56  

Don't do anything or expect worse. It's that way when something good happens

Speaker 3  6:59  

when and to what you want. But understand why do you want what you want. So that involves a typically a deeper look into your own history, your own experiences, and being an active participant in the process.

Speaker 1  7:12  

Yeah, it's the I want this. But it's what are the steps that we're going to take to achieve it? It's not just that aspect of saying, Oh, well, I would really like to have this type of birth, but maybe not doing anything about it. Right and just saying, Well, I put it out in university I wanted this to happen and whatever it is, it's really putting some action steps. I think

Speaker 3  7:29  

with it. I'm looking deeper into the Why do you want it? Right? Why do I want this and then protecting that and not being so tied to the one thing because especially having given birth before it's like very much like focusing on individual aspects of giving birth. And again, I need logic to know to go through it. But that's what we tend to say if you if you don't want something or you do want something or you're very tied to something, tell us a bit a little bit more about why and then what we aim to do is protect that and aim to set ourselves up for that feeling. And that'll be easier than being so tied to a particular type of larger way of birth or one thing and ever. That's like the birth plan. You know, people can get tied up see that as like a really good thing or a really negative thing or don't we're gonna set you up for success or disappointment or it's only gonna lead to whatever you know, I think the the gift of the birth plan or birth preferences list is the research that comes with it the self exploration that comes with it the conversations with your provider that come with it, and then your the your flexibility within it. That's it not like XY and Z has to happen in order for you to have a sense that everyone is that rigid. I do think a lot of that we talked to you are like what is but understand is unpredictable. I think a lot of us do understand that. We want people to kind of approach it in a meaningful and intentional way and a self exploration type of way and participant type of way. So that we can really protect the emotional component of how we feel throughout the whole process that will get to the other side of it where like Okay, I hope for this this happened. This is how I feel about it, you better able to process it and then kind of go into motherhood in the best possible way.

Speaker 1  8:44  

And it's show this outline kind of came about with just dealing with the moms in the office that I have and just kind of hearing some of the words that they were saying about their birth experience and it's i didn't i It made me sad that you there seem to be that level of shame with how their birth unfolded. And so that's where I do every round. She speaks a lot on expectations. So she's been known to say or I've even heard your expectations are resentments under construction, but she says even shame under construction. So that's where we wanted to head a little bit with today with some of those expectations and be mindful of where we're putting that happiness whether it's like what you were saying is that feeling versus kind of the outcome is itself but that it still is okay to say that you know, this birth did not go as expected like you still need to honor those thoughts and feelings and vocalize it but want to process that don't necessarily want to stay in in there. We'll go into that

Speaker 3  9:38  

the flip side too and so it will give undertones or fine print to their expectations and preferences for the birth like I really would like to have a low intervention, unmedicated birth. But of course, I want make sure mom and baby are healthy and that's my priority. And I want people to know I know that your priority. That's the absolute minimum. Everything else is also super important that it will be like I want this but of course health nominate your priority. And of course, yes, that doesn't have to be your expected identity or expectation like that is assumed. am I wanting a certain type of birth that doesn't mean you don't want saving health for you and baby. So

Unknown Speaker  10:07  

it's okay to have those those wants and desires. We

Speaker 3  10:11  

have to get an underscore of like, it sounds like dismissing your expectation by saying the other things aren't important. If you don't say we support that too. Yes,

Speaker 1  10:21  

that is yes. So sometimes these are expectations about birth. You gotta kind of look at where are we hearing and experiencing birth but you know, is it people speaking birth stories into you? Is it purely media? I know we've talked a lot on the show of like, how media has kind of influenced how we give birth because it's in a hospital going back to screaming and pain you know, like it's that's just typically what comes to mind. I like to think that it's flipped a little bit maybe I'm saying oh mom and a tub is cool. Oh yeah. Like a little bit different now but interviewer what exactly you're looking for how are you informed about childbirth because that can play a big part in what you are expecting with childbirth and you may not even know of words like you may not know of the word doula in certain situations, you know, if you're coming from one area of life indeed no one in your family has given birth to you don't have no siblings, maybe just based on it to associate to so it's right. You don't know that that could be part of your life. But again to that's a little bit of just one, I guess, beginning

Speaker 3  11:17  

out so one of the first things we put on our client questionnaire for already with clients is like, how were you informed about birth? Like how did you learn about birth? That tells us a lot and there's no judgement, there's no right or wrong. It's just a sort of like, okay, there's the example of like, well, I was born via Syrian and my mom doesn't talk about her story, or I've only ever seen birth in movies. And that's a very honest answer. Or, you know, my dad was a homebirth midwife, and my mom had all of her babies at home and I've watched my older sister gave birth both times that those are all very differently about birth right? And all very important and one doesn't trump the other but when we can sometimes I think that's like the beginning of the intersection or for hurting people's like I don't even know that would be a piece of this about, you know, sort of what is your birth story and you talk to your your mom or dad about your birth story, and if not, would you be open to doing that that could be really wonderful. I don't know how you came into the world and what your mom experienced. I was exploring overstorey birth of any siblings that can impact you, especially if you're an older sibling. And then how you came up through your teenage years and early adulthood movies that you saw and like you talked about, like the time what we typically see from a laboring birthing person and a movie is not the most part what it actually looks like. So if that's all you've ever witnessed, then then then there's like that, if that's how you even though you don't realize it, that's what's been ingrained in your brain as far as what birth looks like. And if you have a sort of that personal journey of learning about childbirth and what it can mean, then that does sort of set your expectation of what it's supposed to look like. And so if that's all you've ever been exposed to, and then now you're like, but I know because I've had a friend or I've heard, like unmedicated is the way to go. But then that's how you look back on the infarct about birth. And that gap is pretty big, as far as like how they learned about birth and where they want to go. So the next part is how do we shrink that gap? How do we fill that in and work towards meeting your goal of meeting your expectation? Because if we didn't do that, and that gap is really big, and that's where you have a greater chance of disappointment or resentment, or and that's what Brene Brown talks a lot about and the shame, and there's, there's no right or wrong, but it's that's where it's important to sort of look and then Okay, so the next step here is, how are you going to prepare for childbirth? And it's nothing we asked her if we're really gonna begin working with him. It's like, what are you doing, to start this journey for yourself to kind of see where people are at. And so a lot of it is your own introspection looking back at your own history, certainly where and how you learned about birth and then childbirth education, comprehensive out of hospital childbirth education from an evidence based program is going to teach you so much. You know, we do so much research surrounding certain big events in our life, when we're making decisions, were we buying a car, buying a house, getting a job, you know, going on a big trip, like you do a degree of research and preparation, so that you like are as informed as possible. So childbirth is very similar. So taking that into the teaching class, working with a doula, of course I'm biased. I am a doula. There are many many benefits and lots of episodes on benefits. of our doula, but really, you know, they are that information or emotional physical support for you for the duration of pregnancy and postpartum and can help help you navigate the process help help you learn how to advocate for yourself help advocate for you in the working space as needed. Like, it's just, it's like a buffer, it's your guardrails. If you you know, no matter what kind of birth you want, you know, the one of the great benefits of a doula is that continuous support and really improving the overall satisfaction of your birth. And that kind of plays into the fourth expectation, right? We see our clients really feeling like most important is when they do have to navigate the unpredictability that comes up with work done plan things because we're there we're answering questions or reading research, like holding their hand walking them through it and that is getting the fear down, keeping the them in control. And that doesn't improve the overall experience. choice of provider like this is a part of how you're preparing for your choice provider matters. They have a greater influence over the outcome of your birth. So typically an obstetrician and a hospital midwife and a hospital or midwife at home, for the most part that's like the bulk of of providers. So do your research. We have episodes on how to choose provider. The difference is, you know, learning the difference in OB and midwife exploring options in your area, like, you know, interviewing, interviewing, having those conversations, like even if you're like, I don't intend on changing let's have a conversation with them. A lot of people have been with an OB because that they remember gynecologist and they just stayed with them and maybe they're great gynecologist, but they don't want to be best suited to help you with your baby in most cases, midwife, midwife support the neurophysiological process of birth and are gonna be more hands off low intervention, more individualized care, and that's actually who you should be with unless you have a high risk pregnancy. So it's one of your options they're choosing choosing who is the right fit for you and your needs. And then like our support team, and we talked about this a lot, who else is on your support team? This is also how you're preparing for childbirth. Right? So chiropractor right? So many benefits already with a car marketing branding. It's far above and beyond just that physical aches and pains. There's so much information that you provide in your office resources and person to talk to, you know, seeing the regulations and just have so many benefits. During pregnancy. You learn a lot about your body about how to move during pregnancy it helps improve shorter Labor's pushing bounds in the pits and in the body. There's so much better, right? We have a whole lot of other benefits being offered to care, pelvic floor therapy. That is one that that is so important. And that gets overlooked and not always recommended like and it's not even this isn't like the only thing it's not only needed when you have dysfunction in the pelvic floor. Like we definitely encourage being with a pelvic floor therapist, even if you don't have dysfunction during pregnancy because they can help figure out the needs of your pelvic floor and where you're at and give you exercises for breathing, helping the pushing, pelvic reduce tearing, helping with early postpartum exercises and breath work that are gonna help restore your pelvic floor to the assumption that I had before. And then also say in the same vein as your provider, your birth location to how you prepare for childbirth, choosing your replication like matters and these are all active participation, active participant things that you're doing to prepare for your job work to try and reduce the gap in like that expectation and reality so that you have the best chance at having the best work possible. Right? This doing these things it's not a list that you check everything off. You're guaranteed a certain type of work believe you know is not the case. But doing these things helps reduce the negative experience feeling it helps improve the benefit that improves the chance that you're gonna feel good about your work, no matter what comes up and you got this whole team of people around you and you have all this empathy as advocacy and education. So you're just more plugged into the process. And that is how we feel. I think you have a better chance of meeting your, your original expectations and beyond maybe exceeding them, right. So I have lots of episodes that we are going to link in the show notes of our support team, the benefits of chiropractic care, childbirth, education, public and public work areas, where you can kind of like get some insight into how each of them can help you prepare for your birth and why it matters. And I feel overwhelming to be like oh my goodness, I hurt my OB and I thought I was gonna get burned by everything else. And I feel overwhelmed that I have to do all these things. You don't have to do all of them. Just know that each little step you take lead you to the next thing and just take it one little thing at a time but just know that the this is how you prepare for childbirth, right? And other part of implement on your preparation for childbirth is your friends and family and your village. So who's around you? What stories are they sharing? You know, how are they are they seeing fear? Are they seeing encouragement, you need to draw some boundaries there during pregnancy to protect your your wishes. So I know that's a lot and mentally overwhelming, but I know there's more right like mental health counselor, lactation counselors. I mean, these people, and even when I was pregnant, I didn't know the breadth of what my support team could look like. As I do now. Every one of these have a role in the process and can help you prepare to have the best possible

Speaker 1  17:53  

they know everything that you mentioned was so good. I was like I hope that ended up coming episode stuff like typing about it and I remember my notes here we need to link to all these episodes that we've done. Because I think nothing brings me more joy than a mom who comes in and first time mom and just soaking up all of the information. And we start talking about all of these members of the support team that you just went through and that she begins to explore and feel fully supported. Whether she hires the whole entire flow or whether she doesn't, but she knows about it and is aware that the biggest thing I don't want to happen is that I don't want to get to the end and be like, Oh, well, I wish maybe this would have gone differently. Had I known about this. I don't want that. But I felt that I had that. You know, there are certain words that I didn't know, when I was printing the contract. Like I didn't have any of those things. It's these little touch points that are really cool that again, give you that ripple effect of expanding your knowledge base because that knowledge can bring power into the birthing space. So have all those people

Speaker 3  18:47  

know people ya know they're there and pick a couple that might help kind of give you the most support for your individual situation because everyone's different so yes, I'm having them all but I do think that you're you're allowed to put all their weight in their provider like in their OB or midwife has been the know or the catch all or they're gonna tell me what I need to know and they are amazing and serve a very important role. However like current care pelvic floor PT period with health counseling doula on top of that are not always top of their list for sharing with you. That's just the facts and that is combined like, you know, there's a whole other information but some people assume that if they didn't tell you to get job in education or higher door because you're pregnant or that I don't need it that way, and then again, back to have to participate in active participation, self determination. So you have to take some openness here and choose some of these things. And

Speaker 1  19:35  

I do that research there. I know that well and so then it kind of ties into how we navigate the birth process now can that can be related to that birth support team that we have created or what we are aware of as well too and then that you've always talked about, like being the bamboo I love and that aspect of like that flirt firm but flexible. I just think that's a beautiful way it is not rigid. You know, it's not that aspect of going back to I will only be happy if this occurs. It's putting that happiness in stuff on that situation. We also have control

Unknown Speaker  0:24  

Hello hello friends you

Speaker 1  0:46  

so, do your research we have episodes on how to survive the differences, you know learning the difference in an OB in a midwife exploring options in your area like interviewing, interviewing, having those conversations like even if you're like I don't intend on changing I'll just have a conversation with a midwife. A lot of people have been with an OB because that they were their gynecologist and they just stayed with them. And maybe they're a great gynecologist, but are they the one that is gonna be best suited to help you deliver your baby? In most cases, midwife, midwives support the normal physiological process of birth and are going to be more hands off low intervention, more individualized care, and that's actually who you should be. With unless you have a high risk pregnancy. So exploring your options they're choosing choosing who is the right fit for you and your needs. And then like your birth support team, like we talked about this a lot. Who else is on your birth support team? This is also how you're preparing for childbirth. Right? So chiropractor right? So many benefits to working with a chiropractor during pregnancy and it's far above and beyond just that physical aches and pains. There's so much information that like you provide in your office resources a person to talk to, you know, seeing them regularly is going to just have so many benefits. During during pregnancy you learn a lot about your body about how to move during pregnancy helps improve. Shorter Labor's pushing bounce in the hips and in the body. There's so much there right? We have a whole episode on the benefits of prenatal chiropractic care, pelvic floor therapy. That is one that that is so so important. And that gets overlooked and not always recommended like and it's not even necessary. It's not like the only thing it's not only needed when you have dysfunction in the pelvic floor. Like we definitely encourage being with a pelvic floor therapist, even if you don't have dysfunction during pregnancy because they can help figure out the needs of your pelvic floor and where you're at and give you exercises for breathing, helping with pushing, helping reduce tearing, helping with early postpartum, like exercises and breath work that are going to help restore your pelvic floor to the function that I had. before. And then also say in the same vein as your provider, your birth location to how you're preparing for your childbirth, choosing your birth location like matters. And these are all good, like active participation, active participant things that you're doing, to prepare for your childbirth to try and reduce the gap in like that expectation and reality so that you have the best chance at having the best birth possible. Right? This doing these things, it's not a list that if you check everything off, you're guaranteed a certain type of birth believe you mean that is not the case. But doing these things helps reduce the negative experience feeling. It helps improve the benefit the or the improve the chance that you're going to feel good about your birth kind of no matter what comes up because you've got this whole team of people around you and you've done all this advocacy, advocacy and education so you're just more plugged into the process. And that is how you feel I think you have a better chance of meeting your birth your original birth expectations and beyond maybe exceeding them. Right. So I know we have lots of episodes that we are going to link in the show notes as some of these things because on each of those like building your birth support team, the benefits of chiropractic care, childbirth, education, pelvic we have lots of pelvic floor therapist like where you can kind of like get some insight into how each of them can help you prepare for your birth and why it matters. And it might feel overwhelming to be like oh my goodness, I hired my OB and I picked where I was going to give birth but I didn't do anything else. Now I feel overwhelmed that I have to do all these things and you don't have to do all of them. Just know that each little step you take leads you to the next thing and just take it one little thing at a time and just know that the this is how you prepare for childbirth, right? And then the other part of influence on your preparation for childbirth is your friends and family and your village. So who's around you? What stories are they sharing? You know, how are they are they seeing fear? Are they seeing encouragement? You know, do you need to draw some boundaries there during pregnancy to protect your your wishes. So I know that's a lot and I'm I feel like overwhelming but and I know there's more right like perinatal mental health counselor, lactation counselors, I mean, these people, and even when I was pregnant, I didn't know the breadth of what my birth support team could look like. As I do now. Every one of these people have a role in the process and can help you prepare to have the best birth possible.

Speaker 2  5:46  

By now, everything that you mentioned was so good. I was like I have put in it doesn't come in two episodes. I was like typing in our Member my notes here and I couldn't hear it. We need to link to all of these episodes that we've done.

Speaker 3  5:59  

Because I think nothing brings me more joy than a mom who comes in and maybe like first time mom and just soaking up all of the information. And we start talking about all of these members of the birth support team that you just went through. And that she begins to explore and feel fully supported, whether she hires the whole entire slew of them or whether she doesn't, but she knows about it and is aware the biggest thing I don't want to happen is that I don't want you to get to the end and be like oh, well, I wish maybe this would have gone differently. Had I known about this. I don't want that because I felt that I had that. You know, there were certain words that I didn't know I didn't know the word doula. When I was praying. I didn't know chiropractic care, like I didn't know any of those things. So it's these little touch points that are really cool. That, again, give you that ripple effect of expanding your knowledge base because that knowledge can bring power into the birthing space. So yeah, and have all those people

Speaker 1  7:10  

know what you could go out those people. Yeah, no, they're there and pick a couple that might help kind of give you the most important for your individual situation because everyone's different. So yeah, it's not about having them all. But I do think it's important and that your your a lot of people put all their weight in their provider like in their OB or midwife as being the no all or the catch all or they're gonna tell me what I need to know. And they are amazing and serve a very important role. However, like chiropractic care, pelvic floor PT, perinatal mental health counseling doula and childbirth Ed are not always top of their list for sharing with you. That's just the facts. And that is combined and like, you know, there's

Unknown Speaker  7:56  

a whole other episode. Yeah.

Speaker 1  7:58  

Yeah. Well, they're not like not wanting but if you went in and asked, maybe they would have that information, but some people assume that if they didn't tell me to take childbirth education, or hire a doula or go see a chiropractor that don't need it, they put all that weight, and then again, back to active participants in active participation, self determination, so you have to take some onus here and choose some of these things. And

Speaker 3  8:24  

and do that research there. I know that well, and so then, um, it kind of ties into how we navigate the birth process. Now can that can be related to that birth support team that we have created or what we are aware of? As well too, and then that you've always talked about, like being the bamboo I love and that aspect of like that Fleur firm but flexible, I just think that's a beautiful way that it's not rigid. You know, it's not that aspect of going back to I will only be happy if this occurs because it's putting that happiness and stuff on that situation. We don't necessarily have control of so what's something we can do or look at, or think about having that firmness, but flexibility? And I think that had created that verse support team helps with that.

Unknown Speaker  9:30  

Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  9:31  

I do. Definitely helps

Speaker 1  9:32  

with that. It helps because you're learning like all these different little nuggets along the way. Because I think it's really important that we focus on the be rooted in what you want, like we want people to want what they want. I don't want people to be engaged in the process, and maybe what they want changes along the way, but that's cool or not like we want them to kind of evolve how they need to evolve. But be rooted, be firm, but then the flexibility is so that we know that birth is unpredictable. I know a lot about birth, you know a lot about birth, like we can know we can know everything, but still we can't predict or know exactly how your birth is going to unfold. So we have to be flexible enough because if we're too rigid, then we're setting ourselves up for disappointment. That's where you might get some negative feedback from maybe providers or nurses out there who see the birth plan as rigid and you get the pushback of like, Who are you to plan your birth like? It never goes according to plan and I'm here to tell you it's not about it going to plan. It's about the process of crisis of the plan or preferences however you want to phrase it because a plan sounds a bit more rigid. So I have preferences, these are my desires and my hopes, right? And then you know, aiming to avoid unnecessary intervention and then if intervention is needed, protecting so continuing to protect those preferences that are still available, it's not all lost. And it was really important to learn guys, like that's where we get the nitty gritty with our clients. That really when I went up there, I was like, Okay, we're going to do everything. This is all the things we got to be prepared to avoid the epidural because a lot of information there but then if it comes to the point where it looks like when it might be coming up in labor, where you might need an epidural, like you're shifting from coping into suffering, like the epidural can be a great tool when used judiciously and we're gonna help them out fear it that if it comes up and we do that individually and choose that intervention with inform and shared decision making and space to make your decision, then how we continue to protect the rest of your preferences. It's all out the window. If you study on epidural, it will help to protect the rest of this healthy practices and keep things in the right vibe and space that you need it and know that it's not all for naught. Like you can still have a really wonderful bit of a bird if you have a printer. All right. It's when you end up in the labor space and I'm telling you to go under control without autonomy without space make a decision about advocacy. That's when it tends to build the boulders and come up with disappointment. More so. But again, I navigated things, you know when you're hurt that you weren't planning or hoping for and you can still feel really disappointed even everything else went fine. And that's okay. Like you have to have room for feeling disappointed in ImageNet earlier like, again, we can do all these things, but things might still go sideways and you might still feel really disappointed again even if you ended up with a vaginal birth and it was fine afterwards for the whole time. Maybe on the outside but you're feeling okay, on the inside because you got the epidural or because they had these chairs and at some point or maybe needed. You couldn't have to like proclaiming, like whatever. Yeah, you might still be really tied to that and that's okay. All these things have really strong feelings afterwards and I'm telling you it is okay to feel that way and space and time to feel the feels and then eventually hopefully you can shift into some positive space about it but um you know, I feel so bad for feeling guilty about their work or they feel guilty for feeling any sort disappointment about their work. Yeah, and and, like, Oh, I'm fine. Baby science actually happy. No, it's so complicated. It is so not linear, and it's so not straightforward. And that having the support of me talking to your partner about what this looks like talking to your family about what this looks like talking to a counselor, like an understanding like it's complicated, you're gonna feel complicated feelings right after the birth week after birth, six months after the birth, like that's about it like it lasts a long time. So it matters how you gotta get this process. Exactly

Speaker 2  12:59  

what she said no, I had so many thoughts during all of that and I know

Speaker 3  13:04  

I want to do I want to keep going on and on because it was important and you were gonna get blown up but I want it I want everybody here. We're done with the episode. You know in the office do I also go over and ask what are your thoughts was, what your desires I can I just want to I want to know what happened here and I listen to the words that they use to describe it. And then all that comes to mind for me is like okay, well, I've got these resources for you. So if we want to go this route and add in these things that I think could be beneficial just based on what I'm hearing you say and what desires you want depending on first time or desires you want for this. And here are those resources and people to add to your support team. So definitely go over that in office as well too. And I hear when they come in for the postpartum care. That's when I will sometimes hear those words and thoughts and feelings and even see the emotions and lots of tears in the office of just processing that and it can What would you say? It can look like everything on the outside of the birth was went according to plan you know, but I had about mentally to work and it just that is not what she wanted to do. She had done everything possible and I'm sitting with her like, you are totally fine to feel that. I just want to feel that her husband is here with her so that he could see as we start talking about like okay, well, this is your two weeks you know when we postpartum this Okay, let's check in with this as known how are we continuing to process it because you're allowed to feel that we just want people to stay? Yeah, you don't want it to start you know?

Speaker 1  14:16  

And if you if you don't process it, if you don't take that time, then you are running the risk of it sticking and that's why I like I think it's important to have a team and each you know with you they get a chance to talk about it with us as a doula they get shot, but I hope we were able to talk about their OB or midwife like but I also want to reiterate, those people are not the trained professionals for dealing directly with your mental health. So understanding when it feels and that's why we're trained to be aware of like what feels is within the range of normal for our daily lives and for a couple weeks what feels like it might be extending beyond that what are the warning signs so that we are referring out and again, when you're teamed up with this group of professionals, we all have that sort of radar, and it's a multiple points of contact, where someone might have a chance to refer you or gently mentioned, maybe you should talk to him in a helicopter. They're trained in this like if they're struggling with bonding or processing the birth or or you know, having intrusive thoughts or anxieties or obsessive compulsive disorders or learning about postpartum it just looks differently for a lot of people it's not always quote unquote like textbook. Yeah, like defined by depression or anxiety. But here to mental health counselors are the ones who will direct them to and still be aware to kind of look into okay, this was wrong or this doesn't feel normal and trying to refer out when necessary, and actually talking to a trained professional and Perinatal mental health is so beneficial, their own bias, they have no alternate alternative motive, the ulterior motive besides just to listen to you, and help gently guide you and give you resources, Sooners and the resources to help you and the sooner you get treatment. This is always more important to the shorter and less severe, less severe the symptoms will be so understanding I've been trying to correct it when it's happening to you. It's harder to be proactive when you're in it. So that's why talking to your your, your support to your family and our friends and our partner so that they can help you help us out. Everything we've shared here too. I think the other kind of side note is understanding that previous life experiences, medical history, previous trauma of any kind of all kinds can make an impact on your work experience. So being willing to explore those things and talk about them as a trusted person about how it might impact your birth will make it help because things come up during pregnancy expected.

Speaker 3  16:11  

You may not be expecting, right? So it's about managing expectations. You may expect to have those things resurface in your project. Sometimes that comes out I mean, familial relationships, your relationship with money we could go on and on. There's lots of things that could trigger aspects of things and influence your birth so I think being aware of that, that's why we're talking about this. So we've got like, that's kind of how our expectations come about and then like ways to manage that gap between expectations and reality. And it's a waste. I mean, I guess there's ways to get but that's how it whenever there's expectations come from in the weather resources. We talked about this just a second ago with like the perinatal mental health therapists in counseling, like what are the resources that you can use to help manage those expectations a bit and it can be looking at what you can control in a situation which is usually nothing but you can control your response to it but a lot of these are taken from like that that Brene Brown article that will post as well too. But when you have that verse 14 with you as well, and you have a situation arise potentially with birth, and you do have that support system there too, that can impact your response and maybe having like a healthy response to things as well.

Speaker 1  17:20  

That's something I learned from Brene Brown when I was in her early days of parenting about the gap between expectation and reality was like I was struggling with being at home with my son. This was our first and then it happened again with our second because I'm home. He's at work, and I had an expectation of when he came home, how things would go like when you walk in the door or what happened after that. And he had an expectation of what would happen or how that would look and neither of us were wrong. Neither of us were really doing anything outside that was unhealthy or anything like that. But they were different. But I was always my response to him was based on expectation that he was unaware of. And that was unreasonable. Right. He means in that time, and I had I had an excuse. I was sort of like what I could control there was identifying I thought it was gonna go like this. And it went by and communicated and just even saying we're gonna use the words I thought it was gonna go this way and it went this way and that time I really frustrated is a game changer versus just being upset, frustrated, and then not being able to put words to it. So when I round helped me the words to it. And that was huge. And then it just shifted. It was like this tiny little shift that ended up making waves of differences for us and how we navigated those early days because they're so stressful and you're tired back at work or you're gonna have to go back to work and you've got other kids are just as diverse. There's so many stressors. So

Speaker 3  18:31  

stressors, you're starting, not at like a fully rested optimal point. You're kind of starting a little bit though. So then you don't have as many of these reserved capacity things to deal with things. It's easier to be stressed. It's easier to be reactionary. You know, it's just how it's kind of set up there.

Speaker 1  18:46  

Yeah, so yeah, again, tools you learn during pregnancy that I think kind of can last, I think was at all here. Brene Brown, if you're not sure. You're into that. Especially not she's she's not a self help guru like person. She's, she's a she's a researcher. She is a psychiatrist. Well, I

Speaker 3  19:03  

know that sounds like she knows she's got a PhD, but she doesn't work. I feel like Social Work aspect of things. Yeah.

Speaker 1  19:09  

It's just like, the way she brings it. Together is so helpful for me in this day. So check around I guess we need to make something a personal teachings are stemming from what I've learned and a lot of it is from her and

Speaker 3  19:21  

how you applied it. Yeah, exactly. I think the biggest thing I kind of gained from that is that it's you know, it's okay to have those thoughts or feelings or acknowledge thoughts and feelings instead of kind of pushing them to the side or just always trying that silver lining aspect of things. I think with her work, I realized that it's okay to have certain thoughts and feelings and emotions and we just try to be better better every day. And yes, again, this might come up again, but like what tools can be used to process those things. So I know you're like read the article. There's just this couple things and what we've already talked about so some of her tools she talks about becoming conscious of our expectations. So that's been the bamboo with our birth plan and then dropping some of the prerequisites so like your worth is not based on how your birth unfolds. She a couple of things. So obviously her articles nothing about birth, but when I saw it, I was like this can definitely pertain to all of that. We also talked about the perinatal mental health counseling therapy aspect of things to get to because we're by no means therapists, but we both work closely with therapists and use those use of the tools to know when to refer. And, again, just another touch point for people to kind of process their birth, and it's worth expectations. But I think a big part too, is building that community building that support group, a couple of blogs I had read and have talked about you know, postpartum doula aspect of caregiving, like all of that postpartum things up and going, oh my gosh, being able to talk doesn't mean you talked about it to all your friends or family. It's the people that you know, who are going to listen to you for a couple of weeks who can help you process it, but it doesn't mean it's going to serve everybody. So choose wisely. Exactly. So but that can help, too. And again, you know, all the members of your support team that you had there, they can also be a part of managing these expectations.

Speaker 1  20:59  

Yeah, I think finding support groups like if it's a breastfeeding group, or mommy like, you know, kind of stroller group room to walk where strollers and, obviously give yourself time to recover a bit like aura. I mean, one of our local gals does a tummy time group or a mod like a play, like Let's be together their babies a little bit on the ground, and then that's facilitated by a counselor like groups where you can get with other people that have gone through similar things. And that also helps you process like, you know, diverse story gatherings when you share your story process. They're like support groups for different niches wherever you are with finding other new moms is vital to how you kind of process and move forward after your work.

Speaker 3  21:34  

So yeah, article with this episode was to definitely help you to not tie your self worth in on a birth outcome specifically, that can be applied to other things in life. I'm always working to make it like I don't want your happiness to be based on these outside circumstances. I really don't want to get we can feel certain ways about things we can honor that feeling, but I don't want to be tied to that. So hopefully, we just open the window a little bit there and looking at that gap between expectations and probably still having expectations, but what can you do to meet those expectations as closely as possible? And finding that support team? I think it's important having the right valuation goes a long way. Well,

Speaker 1  22:14  

I really enjoyed this conversation has gone on to kind of keep going with it because I mean, we're so in the we're like of course about 10 years removed from giving birth. It's I'm always like tying it into like the season the parenting season. So I have enjoyed this conversation and I know we could probably go on and on. But we will wrap it up we will have a brand new episode for you guys next week. As always, we hope you've enjoyed this episode.