Ep 182: The Power of Doula Support

In this episode of the Aligned Birth Podcast, doula Rachael Hutchins and doula Hannah Atterberry delve into the world of birth doula support discussing not only how doulas can impact birth, but their own doula parntership and agency as well.  From highlighting the significance of childbirth education and the multifaceted role of a doula to emphasizing the need for support during pregnancy and postpartum, they also explore the benefits of having a doula present during labor and the impact of doula partnerships on their work and client experiences.  They  emphasize that it's not just about the method of birth but about being seen, supported, and respected throughout the process that creates an empowering birth experience. They explore the philosophy behind birth plans, advocating for a deeper understanding of personal values rather than a checklist approach. The discussion transitions into the role of advocacy in the birth space, highlighting the need for doulas to empower birthing parents and facilitate communication with providers. They also address the importance of prenatal preparation for advocacy, ensuring that parents are equipped to make informed decisions during labor.

Transcript

Rachael Hutchins (00:01.582)
Hello, hello, welcome to the Aligned Birth Podcast. This is Dula Rachel. I am flying without Dr. Shannon today, so we will miss her, but I am super excited to have my Dula partner, my business partner, what my husband calls my work wife, Hannah Atterberry today on the show. We are gonna talk all things birth Dula.

We have a lot of other things we do in this work, but we're going to talk specifically about birth doula support today. We're going to talk about where we started, where we're at now, the basics of what a birth doula is, the philosophy of our doula support, our approach to doula advocacy really near and dear to our heart. And we're going to also try and touch on the obstacles to hiring a doula that we come across.

So thank you everyone for being here and thank you Hannah for being here and for this conversation.

Hannah Atterberry (01:06.173)
Thanks, I'm excited to be here.

Rachael Hutchins (01:08.27)
Yeah, we talk daily, but today we're going to record us talking, which brings a little bit of like, we're like, uh-oh, what are we saying? Are we going to say something wrong? Are we going to, you know, but then it's like, oh no, we are very comfortable talking about this topic.

Hannah Atterberry (01:26.515)
Right, we ramble for hours about all of these topics. Hopefully we have some good nuggets of information for people to hear. I mean, we think we do.

Rachael Hutchins (01:28.446)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (01:35.406)
Yeah, and that's the goal that's what this podcast is here for to plant seeds To inspire to educate, you know to share what we know. Is it everything? No, do we get things wrong? Yes, but I we still think we have you know, some things still aren't we've been in this for a while I've been doing it 11 years. You've been doing it eight years. We've been doing it together for four years I'm not a mathematician, but that's a lot

Hannah Atterberry (02:01.747)
It's a lot of years. Yeah, lots of learning. We've definitely learned a lot along the way too. I, you know, just saying that we've been working together for four years, just like reflecting back on our evolution of where we started out, just when we met each other versus now, it's just wildly different. And even where we were when we met each other versus where I started out and where you started out was also wildly different.

Rachael Hutchins (02:20.01)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (02:31.581)
So it's pretty cool.

Rachael Hutchins (02:31.93)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's proof that there's so much room for change and evolution and growth and flexibility. it's like, you know, so many things that we talk to our clients about as they prepare for birth is like how we've had to navigate the past handful of years. So let's talk about where we started. Do you want to go back to like your brand new baby doula?

self all the way up to when we came together.

Hannah Atterberry (03:02.931)
Sure.

Sure. was what a journey. I guess a little bit about my background into how I got into doula work was that I grew up thinking I was going to go into medicine. So I was definitely medically minded my whole life. And I mean, ever since like early elementary school, I had the goal of going and doing something in medicine. The modality changed from time to time, but

I was always true to that. And then I had a friend that introduced me to birth work and she told me, hey, you need to be a doula. And I told her, I can't just be a doula. I need to go do something else, something bigger, I guess. And then she introduced, she's like, just watch some of these, these videos, watch, watch some of these documentaries, read some of these books and just come back and talk to me.

And so I did and birth work was then the only thing I wanted to do. But my mind frame had changed and I really started questioning the medical system. And it really opened my eyes to what we got right and what we were not getting right. And it seemed like with birth specifically that we were not

getting things right a lot. And that was, it made me feel very protective, I guess, of people that were giving birth. And it made me very, I guess, I didn't trust the system. I didn't trust providers a lot. And it made me very wary of working in within a system.

Hannah Atterberry (05:04.125)
So when I was a brand new baby doula, when I started actually doing doula work, I was very anti-intervention. It was like, no, we're not doing any of these things. They're all crazy, and it's all going to lead to the cascade of interventions, and just pretty much just shut it down. And of course, my very first couple of births were very intervention heavy.

I started the learning process, the evolution started very early to where I was a little bit more open-minded to interventions. But I definitely still felt very closed off and closed minded to them. I didn't view them the way that I view them now, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit later. But it was, I was very closed off.

I don't feel like I prepared my clients in such a way to be malleable if things arose. I still believe deep, deep, deep down that it's wonderful if we can put physiology first, right? If we can just let the body unfold on its own. But I also know that sometimes it needs some coaxing for one reason or another, or we need to step in, or not we. Somebody needs to step in, providers need to step in for one reason or another.

I wasn't preparing my clients in such a way that they were prepared in the way that I like to do now. And also my version of advocacy looks way different now than it did then. I've always felt really comfortable advocating. I always felt like that was a good role of a doula and a birth partner and a birther was to be an advocate. I just approached it very differently. And there was definitely a lot of times in my early years where

As I was advocating, I built tension up in a room rather than reducing it because I was coming in with a very strong voice and a very protective spirit. And I've learned that we can have a very protective spirit and firm boundaries, firm client boundaries, but reducing tension over time.

Hannah Atterberry (07:33.159)
Definitely, there's definitely been an evolution. So that's kind of where I started out in birth work and yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (07:44.558)
I like how you can show the contrast of where you started, where you were in your mind and in your practice and some of the ways you are different now. And that there's not criticism of that first self or that first version, know, 1.0 Hanedula versus now 10.0 Hanedula, you know, like.

Hannah Atterberry (08:00.434)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (08:07.5)
you work with what you got and what you've been exposed to and what you've learned. And so that's something I really do like to talk that we like to talk about a lot with newer doulas is being gracious with yourself and knowing that like we work with what we have and always being open to learning and open to change and growth. And, you know, I think that's what I, one of the things I love most about being a birth doula is that ability is that I go into a birth and I always come out with something I could do slightly different or learned about.

Hannah Atterberry (08:19.101)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (08:37.243)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (08:37.424)
something I didn't know before or there's always something and then I get to bring it into the next birth. So I think that's really awesome and I like how you kind of paint that. I think it's super real. And so similar to me, my birth story, similar in the way of like I'm vastly different than I was 11 years ago for a variety of reasons, life and kids and motherhood and business stuff.

Hannah Atterberry (09:01.555)
you

Rachael Hutchins (09:04.686)
But yeah, I came into this work, love because Hannah, you came in prior to children, prior to by a lot of like having your own birth. And I came in after the birth of my oldest. And it was due to a really wonderful experience.

Hannah Atterberry (09:10.589)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (09:14.247)
Right?

Rachael Hutchins (09:25.718)
I, my very first like moment in history where I could like pinpoint it was a dear friend of mine who was like just pregnant ahead of me. She was like a few months ahead of me and she shared, she was like, have you seen the documentary, Business of Being Born? And I was like, no, obviously I mean, I was just newly pregnant and just hadn't been exposed to that.

And that was truly a game changer for me because it sort of like opened my eyes to what was out there. I had only known, you know, what I had been told about birth from, you know, my mom and my sisters. And that there was so much to learn. It was just like...

don't be naive in this space, right? B, it was really like it resonated with me that as a birthing, and this was before I knew I wanted to be a doula, but a birthing person should be in their own power.

should be and and self-determined. lived it was a huge shift in me from my passive receiver to I have some charge here I have some I know there was a lot of growth there but like I I shift the light bulb in my head was like okay like you you have some say here on how this goes.

And from there, it's like, you know, they talked about doulas and childbirth education and like all these words and stuff that I really wasn't familiar with. And so I took a comprehensive job with education class. I hired a doula, I switched providers. Like I did these things incrementally, but then gave me more information and more confidence and had an amazing birth with the doula by my side.

Rachael Hutchins (11:13.066)
and my husband was really engaged in the process and I think a lot of that was bringing him in the fold and sharing the tools I had learned and the education I had learned. And so I was just like, could not consume enough birth at the time, blogs, books, whatever I can get my hands on. And I thought it was because I was pregnant.

I deliver, have my baby, and then like six months after having him, I reach out to my doula and I'm like, hmm, tell me more about this magic you do, about this work you do. And there, and started the journey of becoming a doula. And the following year I trained and started taking clients and that was 12.

Hannah Atterberry (11:45.235)
You

Rachael Hutchins (12:03.022)
plus years, or no, 11 years ago. My son is 12, so I always have to that marker, 11 years ago. And yeah, I mean, I think in my early days as a doula, I...

And this was some critical feedback I received as an early doula, but I definitely wanted to search out a certain type of client that was more like myself and more like didn't want intervention, didn't want pain relief, know, wanted this like holistic.

uninterrupted experience because that's what I had had or you what I felt like I had had and that was the way like I kind of was like that was so amazing who wouldn't want this this is the way right and so I kind of felt like that's how I taught about birth that's how I shared about birth and and now after going to a lot of births similar to what you said you realize there's so much more out there and now my type of support is definitely more

Hannah Atterberry (12:44.893)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (13:02.45)
open minded and more open to what might be needed, but I've learned so much too about just supporting physiology, but also supporting people's choices and what they want for themselves and what they need for themselves and that's not always an unmedicated water birth. Like right like it and so it's been an awesome journey and now I feel a lot more confident in my work and proud of my work, but it's definitely been.

Hannah Atterberry (13:21.678)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (13:31.872)
and evolution. And then the comparison for me for advocacy was I in my original training, I was basically told not to speak up for my client. That that is not what dual is do that that's outside of our scope. And I now feel very differently. So I spent many years in this like confusing space of

feeling like I should speak up and sometimes speaking up is struggling to speak up or even saying the wrong thing, maybe creating tension.

or maybe not saying anything in some situations and then feeling a lot of complicated feelings afterwards or witnessing trauma in the birth space and not knowing what to do with it or how to show up. But also feeling like, I'm staying within what I was told I should do. And I had many years of complicated emotions and feelings. And honestly, that contributed to some of my burnout that I experienced. But now...

Hannah Atterberry (14:25.691)
Mm-hmm. yeah

Rachael Hutchins (14:31.308)
I see advocacy as a very important role of birth duelist support, similar to what you have said. And we've done our training, our most recent advocacy training together, which definitely has changed how we talk about advocacy, but man, it's been such a boost in confidence because it's like, it doesn't have to be a negative experience. To advocate doesn't mean tension or right.

Hannah Atterberry (14:50.131)
Mm-hmm.

to fight, come in with boxing gloves, right?

Rachael Hutchins (14:55.766)
Right. And I like what I'm teaching our clients about that too, because I think as a new mom, you don't just want someone to come in there and do all of this work for you. We want you to learn how to advocate in these spaces for yourself because that's a tool that lasts a lifetime. And so that's what gets me excited about talking about advocacy. Now.

We've also learned how to speak up when a mom's voice isn't being heard or she can't speak up. So there's that too. So yeah, but I teetered towards burnout around when Hannah and I were.

and connected and fun story, Dr. Shannon, other co-host of this podcast, introduced Hannah and I. So she's like an amazing matchmaker. She just like so good with people's energy. She knows how to like put people together. And she did that for me and Hannah. We were both moms living in the same area with, dual businesses. And so she was like, you guys should connect. And we did connect. and we had an instant connection. She was pregnant with her youngest.

Hannah Atterberry (15:42.675)
You

Rachael Hutchins (16:02.242)
I was like, you know, if you need a doula, I'm here.

Hannah Atterberry (16:07.372)
And I was like, absolutely. Please, please be my doula.

Rachael Hutchins (16:11.254)
And so I got to be Hannah's doula, which was awesome. And then we started taking clients like we actually know, let me back up. Me being your doula. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, take over.

Hannah Atterberry (16:20.979)
started teaching together.

Yeah, we started teaching together, kind of like an advocacy class, like a small little mini, well, I guess it was more like a shared decision-making class. And it was a class where we could just answer people's questions. And then we were still taking our independent clients. And then we started backing up for each other.

Rachael Hutchins (16:30.605)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (16:36.236)
Yeah, yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (16:53.039)
And then we became each other's primary backups. And then I think we actually had to, I think I backed up for one of your births and I think you backed up for one of my births. And I think both of us felt completely at peace with it, which I think that was the first time I've ever actually used a backup doula.

Rachael Hutchins (17:14.286)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (17:15.795)
That says a lot. That says a lot because I actually was comfortable having you in that space. like I said, I'm very protective of my clients. And then you had me as a backup doula and you felt totally comfortable. then our clients had really good feedback, you know, and they felt like we were very similar. And then we had, even before we had.

Rachael Hutchins (17:33.806)
Totally.

Hannah Atterberry (17:46.835)
Well, I guess one of our very early conversations was about partnership and that we were kind of entertaining it. But then I think we actually came to the decision at the same time. And we're like, hey, can we go meet for some lunch after our class and talk? And we came. We're like, so are we just going to do this?

And then we were just fully all in. And then we even talked about agency, which was really interesting. just thought we were both like peaked our interests, but we thought that was years off in the distance when in reality it wasn't, which is really cool.

Rachael Hutchins (18:25.6)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, no, the partnership, literally I went from almost burnout to like, don't know if I can do this dual work anymore to...

us coming together and so we were dual partners meaning we took on clients like one client would hire both of us so that's what a dual partnership is you have two dualists for every one client you share prenatals you share client communications you share being on call which was one of the biggest gifts of being in partnership so like we we did the one week off one week on

And then one of us goes to the birth, but then we're also each other's backup. So if we need to trade out, there's someone built in already there for you. And so that model resonated significantly with both of us. And then putting it in practice and seeing the pretty quick benefit was like,

This is like an energy booster. was an energy giver. was like changed everything. Again, I went from almost burnout and that was only taking one to two clients a month to, you know, working with you and taking, you know, two to four clients. Nothing like, it wasn't like a significantly more amount of clients, but I just felt better. It felt.

Hannah Atterberry (19:30.289)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (19:46.771)
It felt so good and we had so much fun too, like in the prenatals and stuff.

Rachael Hutchins (19:51.586)
Yes. Well, yeah, because you have someone alongside you, you know? And then there wasn't all that stress if someone went out of town, your clients are taken care of, like you're not like trying to work when you're out of town and you're not stressed about missing a birth. So the partnership came, we came together and it just was like a boost. So much so that we quickly realized we wanted to share the model. Like we, we

Hannah Atterberry (20:10.803)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (20:16.787)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (20:18.952)
so thankful we both have like similar minds in like systems, organization, you know, business and that's, you know, not a dirty word. You know, when you become a doula, they don't really put a lot of emphasis on the fact that you are then running your own business on the other side of this. And I'd also kind of, you know, struggled doing that by myself for so long. So coming together with someone else who got it, we quickly were like,

Hannah Atterberry (20:44.178)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (20:48.194)
We were, the creative energy was on fire, the organizational stuff. And we were like, we've got to share this with more people. And so then we started having some conversation with some other doulas that we knew. And then we brought on one doula partnership. Another, you know, our first goal, and I guess we can say our first goal was to basically duplicate what we had. So we wanted only doula partners.

Hannah Atterberry (20:51.795)
totally.

Rachael Hutchins (21:14.486)
because we thought that that was the only way to do it. And then we brought on another dual partnership. So we had two and that was all within the first year or year and a half.

Hannah Atterberry (21:24.401)
Yeah, our two. Yeah. Yeah. And then we had a postpartum doula and then we brought in another one. And then one of our other birth doulas was a postpartum doula. So we had like a really tight knit little team. And what an evolution that we've even had within that from, we still believe that partnership is amazing. But we also know that you can have some really awesome solo doulas that

Rachael Hutchins (21:29.594)
yeah?

Rachael Hutchins (21:43.767)
Yeah, I know.

Hannah Atterberry (21:53.927)
that can find the sustainability in this birth work. And we've now shifted to like a very like team atmosphere, which I think is also very helpful because there's opportunity to process births, learn from each other, have good solid backup. And I think that's really helpful. And I think when we came together, it was really cool. Another evolution on how, at least I can say for myself, how I approached doula work.

where before I felt like a lot of the responsibility was on me to provide childbirth education to my clients within a two hour prenatal.

And no one was succeeding. Like when it came to education, right? I was feeling a lot of pressure to get in all of this information in a two hour timeframe, which often ended in a four hour prenatal of a lot of information and that my clients didn't necessarily retain. And I didn't get to go into some of the stuff that we go into now as a birth doula.

Rachael Hutchins (22:38.04)
No.

Hannah Atterberry (23:01.725)
some of the advocacy stuff, like really practicing the breath work, really talking about what it's gonna look like day of, how to prepare for that day of. And then we came together, you were a childbirth educator and we had just talked more and I had been going on my own journeys and we really started encouraging.

our clients to take childbirth education, but also the clients that we started getting were different. They wanted to take childbirth education. And that was a big evolution in itself because then I felt like our clients had a really good basis and really good understanding of the different interventions and options and physiological birth. So then when they were in labor and things were coming up,

that they wanted to do differently or that they needed to do differently, it felt like they were in the driver's seat. And that was a really good shift in energy for me because it made the system not feel so broken. We were having good interactions with providers.

good conversations, like the clients were having good conversations with the providers. Everyone was being respected and listened to for the most part. And people would need to or want to accept an intervention. And then I started seeing them as really powerful tools. And so that was a big shift. And then that just has been continuously getting reinforced throughout our time together. It's that there are all of these things that

can come up in labor can be a powerful tool, but we have to use them judiciously. We have to go through that vetting process and make individual decisions. So I thought that was a cool shift as we kind of came together too. think childbirth education was a big component of that difference when it came to client experiences.

Rachael Hutchins (25:10.744)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's helpful for newer dualists to hear too, because I think we feel like the burden is on us as new dualists to give our clients all that information. And it can be like relief when you're like, okay, really my role is to help encourage them to take the chopper education and then support in all these other ways. It feels like it's essential. Like it feels like it should be part of it, but.

It's just too much for one person to do now unless you are teaching classes and offering an additional service and having a separate meeting or class for them to take, but to try to cram it into the two prenatals that duals typically do is too much. But yeah, love education. Childhood education was huge in my own journey. And I just think it's incredibly valuable.

Hannah Atterberry (25:48.871)
much.

Rachael Hutchins (25:59.886)
to all birthing people and partners just to understand what's going on. Like think about any major thing in one's life.

most of the time you're going to do some research, you're to do some information gathering, some education. So why should we not in this scenario? But it tends to be an area of resistance for people to lean into. So we do push it from the beginning and talk about the benefits of it. And again, I think the things you learn aren't just left in the birth space, like they transcend. So we try and encourage people in that way. And we have, child we offer,

Hannah Atterberry (26:20.251)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (26:30.055)
really.

Rachael Hutchins (26:34.718)
several of our own childbirth education classes now which has been another growth for our agency so that's super fun because we want people to have options. And so we have given you a little bit of the history of us start to present. So I do want to talk a little bit about we've been swirling around birth doula but for anyone that isn't familiar like what is a birth doula Hannah?

Hannah Atterberry (27:04.881)
It's funny, because if you would have asked me eight years ago, what is a birth doula? I would say a birth doula is a companion that is going to provide you informational, educational, and physical support throughout your childbearing process. And while that definition is still true, I feel like that just is so ambiguous. Like, what on earth does that even mean? I think, at least the way that

Rachael Hutchins (27:25.834)
I know. I know.

Hannah Atterberry (27:31.251)
I can say that we approach birth doula is we are a guide. We are a sounding board. We can be your resource center. We think that the more you lean on a doula, the more you get out of a doula. So doulas are going to, you hire them throughout your pregnancy. We think anywhere around that early second trimester is a great time to hire a doula.

because there's so much that goes on throughout your pregnancy and you can really lean on them. DULAs are not just for labor. We are there for the pregnancy and postpartum as well, which I think is a really common misconception. The way that we think that DULAs should show up for their clients is offering that guidance with, this is a great time to start learning about X.

know, childbirth education or newborn education, or this is a great time to start planning for postpartum. We can help find good providers that are in alignment with you. know, a doula that's been around for a while knows good providers and they know that there's different cultures in each practice. Or even with home birth midwives, there's different personalities. And so I think a good doula can kind of share that information with you.

So you don't have to go to Google and just search for people in your area can be a mindful recommendation for all kinds of providers, right? So pelvic floor therapists, chiropractors, mental health professionals, et cetera. So we provide professional resources, we provide educational resources. So for a childbirth education or for those things that come up, like if you need to explore, what is group B strep?

And what does that even mean for me? A doula is going to help provide the resources to do your own education and then be that sounding board to help you process that information and share her experiences and what she knows about it as well. Also in the labor space, just guiding you through our early labor and helping you manage well at home so you can stay at home, helping you feel confident.

Hannah Atterberry (29:48.509)
helping change positions when they're together and provide comforting touch. be massage or counter pressures or guidance through breath work. Advocacy, facilitating that communication with your provider, keeping the power in the birther's hands, and all throughout postpartum too, just offering that same guidance, whether it be if they're...

the clients trying to breastfeed or navigating infant feeding in general, whether it's breast, bottle, formula, we should be experts in all of it because the odds of having clients that need all of that different type of support is so likely that you should have a good knowledge basis of all the different options for feeding and helping them navigate that and questions with their pediatrician and stuff. it's

A lot. We offer a lot. think the definition of a doula is going to look different for each doula. And so that's where having a couple of interviews with doulas can be really helpful to make sure that you're in alignment with them.

Rachael Hutchins (30:58.294)
Yeah, that all. mean, yeah, yeah, girl. So I think sometimes like, people might hear that and think, why do I need it? Like, why do I need all this extra support for something that happens all the time everywhere? Right? Why do you think we need it?

Hannah Atterberry (31:20.489)
it's so funny, because I was just having very similar thoughts with a midwife about childbirth education. And I think it kind of, I think sometimes people can be so trusting of the birth process that they're like, well, it's just going to unfold on its own, or I won't need that much help because my body's made to do this. And both of those things are very true, but we are also not made to do this alone. I think if you look back through history, women weren't

birthing by themselves. There were mothers, there were sisters, there were aunts, there were tribe members in the birth space with each other to help guide through it. People need a lot of grounding during pregnancy and childbirth. And so I think having that person there to ground you is priceless. I think we also live in a society today that we don't talk about birth a lot.

And when we do, it's almost always negative and scary. If you look at any of the portrayals of birth in the media, it's almost always the same thing. A big pop and a gush, a rush to the hospital, they're screaming as they're coming in the doors and they're sweating profusely as they scream and push out their baby within an hour of their water breaking. It's always traumatic. It's always wild and

I always make sure to throw something at the TV. Let's just be honest. You won't give me riled up, like as much as anything watching Birth on the...

Rachael Hutchins (32:47.95)
Same.

Rachael Hutchins (32:55.116)
No, a birthing scene will be coming up on a show and Jay's like, just don't watch. Just don't watch because you're going to be mad.

Hannah Atterberry (32:58.461)
Just don't, just don't do it. So, yeah, think, know, we need people to help guide us through this because people are so scared of birth and it's deeply ingrained in us at a very young age, especially, you know, girls and women in childhood because it's just a focal point in our life. And then,

know, partners as well. mean, everybody shares their negative birth story. So we kind of come into it a little scared of birth. And then we come into it a lot of times with the mentality of, well, this is the doctor. So they know best and they're somehow in some sort of authority over me. Or same thing with a midwife, you know, we're taught not to question people and medical staff and

And we can have a whole conversation on the system, right? On their limitations, the providers limitations, right? The providers background, I don't fault them at all. So if you're listening, just know that the provider side of things, have their own onion to unpeel. There's lots of layers there. But I think because of all of this like weird dynamic,

it can feel really hard to know when to say something and how to say it. And if something's not being presented to you as a question, you may not know that you can choose another option. And so having a doula can help you build that confidence and know how to ask the questions, know what questions to ask, and then, you know, feel really grounded and confident in those options as well. I think doulas are super helpful. If it makes y'all understand

important I think a doula is. I was a doula. I knew so many things and I still had a doula with me because in that space your brain does not think the way it thinks right now. It's not supposed to. It's not designed that way. It's very good that it does it. So it's nice to have somebody that's outside of you, outside of your partner, that is an expert in birth but also gets to know you really well to help you navigate through all of this and kind of help

Hannah Atterberry (35:21.917)
be that sounding board and that communicator and that advocate. It's just really helpful. And partners are always like, it was so nice having a doula there to shoulder some of this with me. Because doulas are for partners too. yeah, so that's lot of rambling. But hopefully that explains it.

Rachael Hutchins (35:30.414)
you

Rachael Hutchins (35:41.794)
No, I love it. No, it does. And I still, I'm the same way. Like when I talk about it, I usually go on and on because it, I can never really just like, surmise it so perfectly to where I can communicate everything I want to communicate about the benefits of the doula and how individualized it is for everyone. Like you said, supporting people who are in the fully trusting.

the process and don't feel like they need to do anything because it's going to just go how it's going to go and they trust and that's beautiful to the other end of the spectrum of the folks who are either really, really scared because they don't really know what to expect or they're just like fully like, I'm just going to follow my doctor's lead. They're the expert. This happens every day, you know, and everywhere in between. And so like, I think it's good to kind of talk about it.

and all the different ways we can support all the different people. And that's why it's hard to kind of summarize, right? And highly individualized, highly unique, highly nuanced. And it's not like a one and done. Like we have a journey that we go on with our clients, right? Like you hire us earlier in pregnancy and we're with you all the way through 12 weeks postpartum. So to kind of say what we do in a snapshot, do, I struggle with the same thing and I appreciate the words.

I do think like some ways that I like to kind of simplify it too for people is part of the studies around the benefits of birth doula support. Like there's a lot of evidence that we have, but one of the most simple things is that the presence of a doula in the birth space has a positive impact even if they do nothing. that and positive impact meaning.

Hannah Atterberry (37:26.343)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (37:30.578)
know, better outcomes, less use of pain medication, less use of intervention, less use of cesarean, overall more satisfied with their birth. Like, that's it. We, we, the, in the study, it was just the doula was there, maybe held the hand, they were calm, a calm presence. And so I try and tell people that so they can try and see that, just having someone in the room.

They're a sounding board. I get to ask the expert questions. They've known us. They help facilitate informed and shared decision making. They're there if I need them. And I've been to BIRSS where I am just holding space. And I've been to BIRSS where I've been heavy on the physical support. And then I've had BIRSS where it's a lot of advocacy and a combination of all those things. And so we don't know what people are going to need. So we try and give all those examples of, here's what it might look like.

knowing that just having us there, I think this helps dads a lot too, just like our presence, like, okay, you don't have to shoulder this alone, we got you. And that knowing when you're in your intellectual brain here and you're listening and you're planning for your birth, it might be hard to visualize yourself in a head space of not being able to like engage with the outside world or make decisions or know what to do.

Hannah Atterberry (38:41.105)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (38:46.68)
but that's the reality of birth. And so having someone there and then like you talk about this too, cause you supported a loved one, but like a doula is like this third party, not bias, not really emotionally connected to the people giving birth. Now we're connected, but in a way of where we can keep ourselves in a calmer space. Whereas when it's you going through the birth or you supporting the person you love most in this world, being the person giving birth,

Hannah Atterberry (38:49.555)
Thank

Hannah Atterberry (39:08.764)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (39:16.11)
It's a different experience and you're not always staying in your present intellectual calm self. And we bring that energy. We keep the room calm. Not that it's a chaotic, but it's just like a relief. like a big, it's either like a big hug or a big sigh of relief having someone there with you in the first space. I don't know. Again, lots of words.

Hannah Atterberry (39:37.881)
It is. Yeah. Well, I think to that point, you know, I have, I've been a doula. I was a doula for one of my best friends and that was the least. And I think I was able to process it with, with some other doulas recently. And it was actually super helpful. even though it has been a couple of years, cause I actually didn't feel like I was that helpful to her. She, she disagrees. She feels like I was helpful, but, I think what it came down to was I did not feel grounded.

where in the birth space, even in the most, so most of the time, like as you are saying, most of the time birth is very not emergent. It's not, bad things are happening, but there have been times where I have been in more serious situations where things maybe were a little bit more emergent. even in those spaces, I felt very, like I feel so grounded. I'm like,

I can be this calm presence. I can do that. And then I didn't feel that way when it was my best friend. And I feel like I have such a deeper understanding of partners and I'm not even in love with her. Like that's not my person. So I can't even imagine a partner and how much they shoulder throughout the experience.

Rachael Hutchins (40:50.734)
and I'm done.

Hannah Atterberry (41:01.679)
And especially if they're still learning themselves, like they don't know all the different nuances of birth. Even if they took childbirth education, you could have been up for 20 hours and you're having to go back to something you talked about one time in your life. Having to do that by yourself is like, that's a lot. So having a doula that you trust in your room with you.

navigate all of that and even postpartum you know as you're navigating things with pediatrician weight gain breastfeeding bottle feeding all of that it's just having that person that you trust to kind of shoulder all of it with you is just it's how it's supposed to be I just I just think that we've lost it along the way as our as our world has gotten more solitary and less community based but that's just the nature of it and so now I mean

Rachael Hutchins (41:38.008)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (41:53.319)
We have doulas instead of just aunts and sisters and tribe members, right? Now we have a name for it. Where before I don't think we did, it was just how we did things. But I think the need has always been there.

Rachael Hutchins (42:06.318)
Yeah, well, and now I do think duals are more common, even though they're not everywhere, they're more common.

they were 10 or 15 years ago. They've been around forever, but definitely more mainstream. And I think the ripple effect is real of when we can, because I view the work we do as holding the mother, holding the family, like giving them the support they deserve so that their wiring for their brain changes so that when they, what they're passing on to their children,

Hannah Atterberry (42:14.47)
Absolutely.

Hannah Atterberry (42:34.515)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (42:37.966)
is changing the way they view birth and then the way they talk to their family about birth is now different and better. Even if they have challenging things they have to navigate of being like I had team, I had a team, I was in charge of my birth, I was in the driver's seat, you know, I felt supported, it was hard, but you know, this is way it can be and then that ripples hopefully slowly but surely to where we have

Hannah Atterberry (42:48.144)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (43:04.556)
you know, more and more people having positive experiences because it changes the way we parent. It changes the way we show up, especially in those early years. So we always say, isn't this about giving birth a certain way? It's not about unmedicated or low intervention, but it's about

Hannah Atterberry (43:08.733)
Absolutely.

Rachael Hutchins (43:25.506)
being seen, supported, and respected for your own autonomy through the whole process, pregnancy through postpartum. And that that's what I think brings empowerment to women and to birthers and to new moms and that helps them see the world in a different way versus continuing to be, you know, little and submissive and, you know, that, you know, there's other people in charge of what's happening to us.

But I find that when people engage in the way that we help them as far as being decision makers, being in charge, it doesn't create resistance in a majority of our experience that a lot of providers respond to it really well, at least the ones we get to work with now. Are there negative ones? Yes. But I want people to be encouraged that taking these steps

Hannah Atterberry (44:12.915)
Sure.

Rachael Hutchins (44:18.914)
will be received well and that can have long lasting impact and that's our goal. So yeah, little bit of our philosophy in there.

Hannah Atterberry (44:26.855)
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think, you when people come to us, we always ask, you know, how, how are you taught about birth? And, it's almost always their own birth story, you know, from when they were born from their mother. And maybe if they have sisters or something like that, they might hear those as well. And so there's a contrast when, when, when birth was positive and when birth wasn't positive.

Rachael Hutchins (44:35.639)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (44:54.649)
the way that they are wired in birth is different and they bring that into it. And your birth can impact so much as you said, like in those first couple of years, that it really is such an important day. And so I think, you one of the ways that we like to teach people about birth is, you know, kind of talking on philosophy is, you know, we really know that there is no

Rachael Hutchins (45:08.428)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (45:22.885)
At this point in our doula journey, we know that there's no right or wrong way to do this. It's going to look different for everybody every time they birth. No two births are the same. So we think it's important to prepare wisely. And one of the ways that we like to prepare our clients is really getting down to the basics of what they value most during the birth space. Like what are their birth values?

whether that's autonomy or physiology or technology or communication or privacy, whatever it is, whatever those values are, we want them to hold those so dear to their heart and also put them so much in the forefront with their providers, with their nurses, with their midwives, whether they're home or hospital or birth center.

Those are the things that we encourage our clients to talk about most and focused on most. And these are what we as doulas focus on. We protect those values. And I think that's where we really have evolved as of late as like in this iteration of our doula cell. So I'm so curious. I want to come back in five or 10 years and listen to this and see how we've changed. But right now in this iteration of ourself, it's like, we really want our clients to focus on their values.

those go at the top of the birth plans. Those are the first things that they're communicating about. And that's again, what we protect. And we feel like if we can focus on those that no matter what arises, like they're going to be equipped to navigate the challenges. And if we come back to those values at each decision point, they're gonna feel good about their decision or feel better about their decision. And that in turn will reduce the trauma, keeps them in the driver's seat. And how do they know?

We go through education, we teach them about their options. And I think as they learn about birth, they learn their values and what they value most in birth. And so it doesn't have to be this long laundry list of, I want to do this and I don't want this intervention and this is absolutely not. I think those are very helpful and those are great educational communication tools. We don't focus on that because sometimes that can lead to failure, feelings of failure, if they don't achieve their goal in the way that they

Hannah Atterberry (47:49.607)
believed it would turn out. And that can happen no matter what. mean, somebody could want all the interventions and not get any of them. So it's not just about not getting the interventions. It's just not about being so tied to one way of birthing.

Rachael Hutchins (48:05.902)
Well, it's kind of going deeper honestly because I think the birth plan is this new age way of like Controlling our birth or feeling like we're prepared for our birth if we have a birth plan in place

But I think how we view the birth plan as a big part of our philosophy towards birth and it's that it's, it is an educational tool. We use it first and foremost for you to look over and not just check the things you want, but to learn about the things that are most important, of course. And then it's a communication tool between your partner and your provider and your doulas, the nursing staff.

and that it's not a pass or fail like you said, it's not just to check boxes because again I think it's a way for people, some people, it's a surface level preparation tool of like I mean in our busy world of like all the things we have to do you know prepare the nursery, pack the hospital bag, have baby shower, make the birth plan check check check it's very task oriented and not so I just we've got to go deeper and you've got to be willing

Hannah Atterberry (48:54.663)
Right.

Hannah Atterberry (49:07.507)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (49:12.184)
to go there and you got to be willing to look over that birth plan because like we have an in-depth workbook that's like very comprehensive and look over all the things and if you're not familiar with something, familiarize yourself with it, right? And be willing to learn about the things even if they're scary to you, even if they're things you don't want. Like I think you have a better chance of not having something if you've learned about kind of what it is and how to avoid it and when you might need it.

Hannah Atterberry (49:31.335)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (49:38.141)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (49:39.062)
And so the bulk of that birth plan, think we've got to go deeper and that's what we encourage our clients to do. And then the greatest new thing we've been doing of recent is the values. And what I like about the values is I think it resonates with providers and staff at the hospital.

Hannah Atterberry (49:58.632)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (49:59.628)
because it reframes the safe baby safe mama, healthy baby healthy mama that everyone is like going for because there's other values we need to protect. And it just sets the tone of like we don't have to have like xyz in order to have a perfect birth but if we can protect those values and mom and dad or mom you know the birthing family can be

Rooted in their values and then the doula I find it so much easier when I can look at my clients values and and be like this Got it. I feel like I can show up as a better dualist I was like if you're a dual listening or you know planning for a birth. It's like either way kind of incorporating that like we learned it from intentional birth credit where credit is due Meredith and Alicia like

Hannah Atterberry (50:31.524)
yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (50:50.944)
We learned that their advocacy training as a really beneficial way to kind of reframe the birth plan. But just kind of wanted to elaborate there on all the different ways the birth plan can be used and how our goal is that people are.

going deeper into their why and that might make people resistant to the idea of having a doula and make you feel uncomfortable because we gotta anytime we gotta kind of go beyond surface level there's going to be some discomfort and people might be resistant to that. All I can say is it's worth the work.

Hannah Atterberry (51:24.211)
100 % it's worth the work. And you know, I think sometimes people will be resistant sometimes on that first baby because it just feels very overwhelming. I have to learn so many different things and there's so many different things that could happen and interventions and it's just, you know, I think sometimes people just will turn like a blind eye to it and then get in and some people have a great experience, right?

Rachael Hutchins (51:35.224)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (51:45.442)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (51:51.223)
Absolutely, yes.

Hannah Atterberry (51:51.857)
But then we have so many second time moms that come to us. Let's say, I wish I would have known or I wish I would have done this. I wish I would have had a doula for my first or I wish all these different things. what, again, what we want is for people not to feel that way. We don't want people to experience that. So I think doing a little bit of work is helpful. And that's where a doula can come in because

Rachael Hutchins (51:55.041)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (52:00.631)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (52:04.622)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (52:13.4)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (52:21.143)
Okay.

Hannah Atterberry (52:21.681)
We can break it off into bite-sized pieces because we do understand that it's overwhelming to learn all of it all at once. And that's where finding a child with education program that's right for you. There's so many different ones and there's so many different ways to learn about birth. We're not the biggest fans of social media birth learning. Just throwing that out there. I think a true child with education course is the way to get it.

Rachael Hutchins (52:44.014)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (52:49.902)
Like if you've only ever consumed birth on TikTok, cool, not enough.

Hannah Atterberry (52:55.013)
not enough. It's a snapshot and it might make you have very strong opinions about something without the full picture. And that's where again that trauma is going to lie because you could be so rooted in something that you don't have the full picture of. So if it gets brought up in birth it can feel very scary to have to make that next decision. But it's a great place to start.

Rachael Hutchins (52:59.55)
Right. Yes.

Hannah Atterberry (53:19.707)
Right? It's not a bad place to start. There's a lot of childbirth educators even on there. So you can be like, I really like how this person talks. Right? So I really like how this person talks. I love how they're approaching it. Okay, we'll see if they have a childbirth education class. See if you can message them. Do they offer anything? Would they make you a private education class? Right? So I think it's just, it is important to take those little steps. And I think that's where the doula can help you kind of navigate it.

Rachael Hutchins (53:23.222)
Yeah, given really good information.

Rachael Hutchins (53:32.558)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (53:37.026)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (53:48.307)
So it is less scary and it's less overwhelming and a good duel is going to meet you where you're at. And a good duel is going to know, okay, well, this person really thrives with information and this person doesn't need as much. So maybe we have to approach it differently. But I think that you can get the information that you need where it doesn't feel as scary, but it might still feel resistant at first. But anything hard is typically worth the work.

Right? So yeah, we absolutely encourage exploring that option.

Rachael Hutchins (54:23.534)
Yeah, cool. So let's talk about how we advocate because I think that's a really important topic to us. So if someone were to ask you, hey Hannah, you're a birth doula. What's advocacy mean to you? What would you say?

Hannah Atterberry (54:32.935)
Yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (54:43.335)
Advocacy, that is okay. Where do I want to start? Because it's such a good question. Advocacy is so important for anyone and everyone to learn honestly about anything. Going to the car mechanic, anything. Everybody needs to know how to advocate. How I believe advocacy helps in the birth space and how we approach it in the birth space is

may be different than other places because it's such a vulnerable space and time. We really need to be very gentle and mindful about how we advocate. I think if you want to ask me at the root of what advocacy is, advocacy is keeping the power in the hands of who should be making the decisions, which is the birthing parent and then next to them, their partner.

keeping the power in their hands and then my role is to elevate their voice in the space. you know, we don't come in speaking on behalf of our clients necessarily. We don't say, hey, they told us in our prenatal that they didn't want to break their water so you can't do that. We always have to, because then I'm now taking the power, right? The provider took the power first by saying this is what we're going to do and.

And then I took the power by saying, is not what we're going to do, where in reality, we should always be checking in with a client saying, hey, what do you want to do? What information do you need to know to make this decision? And getting that power back to them, giving them the opportunity to then speak and say their answer. And ideally, the answer is respected.

But if it's not respected, that's where the next layer of advocacy can come in. And then we elevate their voice. Maybe we repeat their answer. Maybe we give some good language to really draw attention to the fact that their answer isn't being respected all while building connection with intimacy, making it, humanizing it.

Hannah Atterberry (57:03.889)
and reducing tension, which is a little bit of an art form. It's not something that you can just always go in and just do without good education.

Rachael Hutchins (57:16.364)
Yeah, yeah. One of the things we learned when we did the advocacy training was that the red ball being the power. I like, the example you just gave is a perfect example of like how the power can quickly be taken from the birthing person's hands. And so imagine in that scenario with the water breaking the ball, the power, the ball is in her hands. Then the provider walks in and says, we're going to break the water. He takes that ball out of her hands. Now he's holding the bright red ball.

Hannah Atterberry (57:23.015)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (57:46.25)
and then the doula says no you're not gonna break her water that's not what she wants okay now you reach over and grab the ball now you're holding the red ball right and then maybe the partner looks at his wife and says do you want to break your water right now okay now we've given the ball back to the birthing person right and ideally in that scenario the birth duel is training advocacy and doesn't take the red ball but it's just an example of how just because a doula is there

doesn't mean like it's we still have to be careful about how we speak and and so that the so again I share that example because it really resonated with me when we did our training of like I can I can visualize that so what do I need to say because I'm gonna have to check myself right like what am I want to say right here versus what should I say and so I visualize that ball and what do I need to say to put that ball back in her hands

Hannah Atterberry (58:19.814)
Absolutely.

Hannah Atterberry (58:31.452)
hehe

Hannah Atterberry (58:39.837)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (58:40.534)
And that's like, I'm like, okay, wash and repeat. We do that over and over again as needed in birth. And then knowing some great phrases. Well, I think there's a couple things knowing a birthing person's rights at the birth space is huge for a birth doula.

And the family, like they need to know what their rights are too. Like it's not just on us to have all the information. They chose to give birth in this, in their, you know, wherever they're giving birth. So it's on them to also know what their rights are and that people have rights in the hospital. Like just because you choose to give birth there doesn't mean like you have to do everything they say. Policy is not law. And

Hannah Atterberry (59:16.998)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (59:26.966)
words out of my mind. I was listing stuff.

Hannah Atterberry (59:28.371)
okay. You want to give people, yes, you want to make sure that they have, they know their rights and they have the tools.

Rachael Hutchins (59:35.38)
know the rights, yes. And that they know like prenatally things they can say, like ways to phrase like things so that people listen, that ears perk. And then also knowing the three things Hannah, had.

Hannah Atterberry (59:44.615)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:00:02.006)
Had Okay, hold on. I'm gonna get it. It's fine. I'll cut this out. I had the Know your rights. Okay. Thank you. We're back. Hello The other thing I think it's important for people to have when it comes to advocacy is humanizing the people supporting them humanizing if you've chosen to give birth in a hospital setting the other component of advocacy is humanizing where you're choosing to give birth the facility itself

Hannah Atterberry (01:00:02.067)
I don't know. You had. Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (01:00:30.998)
and then the people working inside of that and that were not there to fight them. Again, you've chosen to give birth here. So how can we work with them so that they can best support you? So I think the humanization piece, know your rights, humanize the people you're working with, like have that connection, like you said, and then know the tool, like have your tools so that you can, and you have to learn all of that prenatally. Like learning that on the fly is not easy. Yeah. Sorry about tumbling right there.

Hannah Atterberry (01:00:54.727)
Right. That's not going to work. Yeah, it's not, it's not, that's good. Now you're fine. And I, know, I was able to like kind of check in with myself as you were giving the scenario of the ball where you're like, where we were the, the, the power hungry doula. Not really, but you know, it's unintentional, but that's what happens. Like instantly I was like, Ooh, there's tension. Like I felt tightness in my chest, right? Where the provider says,

Rachael Hutchins (01:01:13.794)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (01:01:24.337)
Okay, it's time to break your water. And the doula says she doesn't want her water broken. We're not doing that. Instantly I was like, like in my chest was like, putting myself in that room. I would instantly feel that the birther is going to instantly feel that they're just going to look at me. Right. And I'm like, maybe I'm going back and forth to this provider. And then the birther is just sitting there just like, what is happening? Right. No one wants that. So I encourage listeners like check in with yourself. Like, how did that make you feel?

Rachael Hutchins (01:01:45.538)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:01:53.371)
And then how does it feel differently in like this scenario where it's, Hey, it's, it's time to break your water, you know, your five centimeters. And the doula goes, Hey, Sally, the client, do you, do you want to break your water? Do you want any information on why they want to break your water? And then the provider can then answer those questions, right? So, okay. Well, why do we want to break?

Why do we think it's important to break your water? And maybe this is just, they give the answer, well, this is just what we do at five centimeters. Or maybe there's a greater answer. Hey, you know, we've been doing this for a while. Your contractions are slowing down. The baby's kind of high. There's the bags bulging a lot. You know, they can give that answer. So then that client can make an individual decision because if that second scenario, the client might want to break their water. If it's the first scenario, they may not. Even if going into the birth,

the client had no plans to break their water at all, right? Or maybe they choose not to now, but then maybe they choose to later in their labor, right? And so we always have to give them that space to be able to make that decision. I think the doula just gives them the room to feel like they can explore and be curious.

Rachael Hutchins (01:03:16.844)
Yep, yep. And that feels way better when as a doula we're just facilitating that conversation a little bit further because we know maybe that provider, we know they're busy. We know that they feel like that is the best thing or they probably wouldn't be recommending it even if there are risks. But they haven't communicated.

Well, we know they should communicate, but we also don't know what our client needs. So to go in and be like, well, we need more information or no, we're not doing that. Right. That's keeping the power in the Dula's hands. Just simply thinking about looking at the client, handing her the red ball. And then what information do you need to make this decision? Are you ready to this now?

Hannah Atterberry (01:03:35.901)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:03:53.106)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:03:56.076)
And then guiding and then hoping that conversation takes off from there. But a lot of times, in my experience, you look to her and you say, do you want to do? She might be like, I don't know. I don't know what I want to do. Because again, typically you're thinking brain is dimmed in labor.

Hannah Atterberry (01:04:06.899)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (01:04:12.864)
And you're just or you're tired or whatever. And so you're going to look around and I don't really know what I should do right now. What should I do? Right. And then you get to say, what information might help you? Right. You can kind of keep going with it. It doesn't mean you then say, I think you should break your water just because she asked you what you think. Right. Like we really need to shut. We need to not be like, this is what we think you should do. We can say in my experience, this miss, Mrs. Provider, what's your experience with breaking water at five centimeters? Like we can.

Hannah Atterberry (01:04:27.623)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (01:04:42.03)
circle everybody up, share our experience, we still aren't there to go, well, since you don't know what you want to do, I'm going to insert my opinion. We're like, okay, if she's saying she doesn't know, then we might be like, do you, with some, what additional information help you right now or with some time? Do you just want some time to kind of decompress? Is this

Hannah Atterberry (01:04:49.629)
right?

Rachael Hutchins (01:05:02.048)
Emerge it like do we need to make a decision right now? Mr. Mrs. Provider like you know We can ask some things that that give her some options and some because again she may not know what she wants to do That's okay because you're gonna feel pressure Maybe she didn't want to break her water originally and now they're recommending it and she's tired and she's ready to meet her baby So she's gonna feel conflicted and sometimes time to process the information Or make a decision after a nap if that's available or you know again, we're just

Hannah Atterberry (01:05:21.683)
You're right.

Hannah Atterberry (01:05:25.991)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:05:31.81)
Humanizing that provider, facilitating the conversation and not taking that red ball in our hands. Scenario where we might need to is maybe provider sits down to do a cervical check and has an amniote hook and is like about to like break her water without asking for consent. What do you do in that situation?

Hannah Atterberry (01:05:36.978)
Yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (01:05:53.511)
Yeah, we definitely approach it very differently, right? We could do it a couple of different ways. We could say, hey, Sally, we'll call her Sally again. Hey, Sally, it looks like your provider is about to break your water. Do you consent to your water being broken? Because any time they hear the word consent in the medical room, they're like, they're using our language over here.

They're using our language, we know this word, and if she says no, this is a big deal if we do otherwise. Or if there's not enough time for that conversation, we could simply just block our hand right in front of the vagina and just say, hey, Mrs. Provider, you need her consent before we do this, and then turn to the client and then ask that question. Hey, what information do you want to know or do you consent to this?

I think that's where I feel getting more confident in your advocacy skills, where things, the tension might be a little higher or there might be a little bit of built tension in the room and not shying away from that either. Cause we're not supposed to just let things happen either. It's, it's a dance. It's a balance. It's an art and, but it's important to learn. So if you're a new doula listening to this, I encourage you to find.

Like, that, like, sit with it? Did that make you feel really uncomfortable? Does that feel like something you could do in a situation? And if it's not, explore where you can learn about advocacy to do it in a tactful, artful way that's not going to build tension in the room if you can help it and make you feel confident on when and how to say things.

Rachael Hutchins (01:07:48.942)
Yeah.

Absolutely. think that's one of the, like when I did my, from like taking my original training and then I did another doula training, you know, a handful of years later. And then I did the advocacy training. Like I really do encourage new doulas or any doulas if you've had that base training to add on an additional advocacy training because it's its own beast. It's its own layer and you need that foundation of doula training in order to add this in. And I

Hannah Atterberry (01:08:13.767)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:08:19.472)
I really even think having a few bursts under your belt.

and then doing it so you can have like some ideas about what birth might look like. we do, want to shout out again, if you're looking for a training, the one we did, I know there are a couple others out there, but the intentional birth program for advocacy for doulas highly recommend they tour around. It's in person. It's a couple of day training. Highly recommend it. But if not with them, then just do it with somebody. Because I think advocacy for us, again, we did this training as pretty seasoned doulas,

Hannah Atterberry (01:08:22.737)
Yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (01:08:45.459)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:08:52.378)
that us, you know, I think we both felt confident in our work, but then it took it to another level and again continuing to evolve and prepare our clients. And I think the other component of advocacy that we do is the way we help our clients prenatally.

Hannah Atterberry (01:09:07.889)
Yes, huge.

Rachael Hutchins (01:09:08.416)
So advocacy isn't just like what we're doing in the birth space. That's one piece of it. But the other part is that doing a training, especially from the doula's perspective is how do we prepare our clients so that they are ready to advocate in the birth space or know what it might look like if we're advocating and role playing or walking through scenarios, giving them some tools like.

Hannah Atterberry (01:09:22.769)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:09:34.07)
A great example of this that I think we see a lot or that we we coach people through a lot is the we have a lot of people who want like an undisturbed immediate postpartum right because that's what they've learned. The golden hour they want delayed core clamping they want immediate skin to skin they want their baby to stay with them. I mean 9.9 out of 10 people are wanting this right.

And I think before my advocacy training, I was like, sure, that sounds great. Like, we'll help you get that right. And we do the best we can. But then after the advocacy training, realizing that we have to be more of a truth teller in regards to if a client says they want something and you're not regularly seeing that happen at wherever they've chosen to give birth, you have to walk them through.

what that is. like for example if someone wants that undisturbed immediate postpartum and if we're going to a hospital that doesn't offer that consistently or says they will and then it looks kind of different or you know telling them that what we see and telling them how they can advocate to ensure they get what they want and then give them the scenarios that when it may not be available.

right? So that we're giving them kind of a realistic picture of what we see. So as a doula being like, this is what I see. I'm not saying this is what will happen, but if this is what I've seen and this is where it's not necessarily bad, but it's kind of different than what you're saying you want, here are some tools for navigating that. So like as a doula, that's what we're doing. And either they can say, I really want to advocate hard here for that.

Hannah Atterberry (01:10:47.731)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:11:12.574)
Maybe I'm okay with what they're doing. It's not bad like it's not like it's you know like it's but if it's different than what you expect and Then it happens. There's a greater chance. You're gonna be disappointed in your experience But if I gave you the truth beforehand you have time to kind of think about what you what you really want in that scenario Then you're gonna be that expectation gap is smaller or you're really prepared to advocate if it's needed and so

Hannah Atterberry (01:11:24.595)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:11:41.427)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the prenatal aspect of it is so important because ultimately providers really don't want to hear from us unless we have a really good relationship with them and they've worked with us a lot and they know that we're coming from all of these, like we're coming into the space with a really good team centered heart. But they really, a heart, well, I was like, I was the team.

Rachael Hutchins (01:12:04.898)
Heart Center team.

Sorry.

Hannah Atterberry (01:12:11.091)
Team-centered heart, like we're, I don't know, but like we're not, we are a heart-centered team, but we're approaching it as a team centered and our heart is good, I don't know.

Rachael Hutchins (01:12:14.356)
Got it. I'm sorry.

Rachael Hutchins (01:12:23.682)
I like it, I like it, I like it. Words are hard. You heard me earlier, Fumlin'.

Hannah Atterberry (01:12:25.747)
But yeah, we're coming at it from like with this team atmosphere, but if a provider doesn't know that, and even if they do, they really want to hear from the parents first, first and foremost, right? Like their voices are the most powerful voices in the room and their voices over time are the ones that are actually going to create change.

Rachael Hutchins (01:12:37.389)
who.

Rachael Hutchins (01:12:45.356)
Right, yeah.

Hannah Atterberry (01:12:55.409)
Right? Because they're the consumers. The birthers are the people that put money in their pockets. So if everybody starts asking for more or different and it becomes consistent and in the space, if a parent is asking for this, it's going to be respected and heard and it's going to land better than if a duel is coming in there and doing it. Right? So that's where like, it's so important to prepare prenatally and this is why we

Rachael Hutchins (01:13:17.89)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:13:24.795)
walk through that scenario because ultimately if they're wanting to clean up the cut and cut the cord early, it's gonna be best received from the parent going, wait, I just want a little bit more time.

Rachael Hutchins (01:13:38.126)
Right, then the dual interjecting.

Hannah Atterberry (01:13:41.139)
Exactly, exactly. Cause they might think, why, is this Tula in here? Get not stepping on my toes. Even if, but if a parent exactly, they're going to be like, okay, great. This is sure. Or no. And here's why, um, they're going to be more open to that conversation. So, so yeah, I think the prenatal aspect of it is so important. And so, um,

Rachael Hutchins (01:13:47.82)
Right, but if a parent says it, they're not going to think a thing about it.

Rachael Hutchins (01:13:56.226)
Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:14:07.389)
which also kind of reminds me in that scenario that we were just talking about where, you know, we talked about me blocking the hand, like putting my hand in front of the vagina to say, Hey, you her consent first. Partners can do that too. Let's say you don't have a doula. There's lots of reasons why access to a doula is not feasible or can be challenging. So in those scenarios, partners, you have every right to say, wait, hold up. doesn't.

Rachael Hutchins (01:14:14.733)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:14:18.69)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:14:35.037)
We need her consent first. We need to check in with her here. And they're going to listen better. that's going to put the brakes. It's going to pump the brakes on everything. And maybe they will approach the situation differently. And if not, that's another conversation. But I think that most of the time that slows it down. they're like, wait, kind of breaks them out of their routine a little bit. Because I think a lot of these things are just based on routine, which I get.

Rachael Hutchins (01:14:38.2)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (01:15:00.91)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hannah Atterberry (01:15:03.483)
hospitals and especially of like a very high volume of people of all kinds of different preferences. So yeah, partners like get in there and learn advocacy skills too.

Rachael Hutchins (01:15:17.644)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, there's so much value to having these tools, whether you have a dual or not, and that it's not about doing or not doing something. I just want to reiterate that our approach is like for advocacy isn't to stop all things from happening. It's to ensure that the person that's happening to is making the decision. Because no one else in that room should be

making those decisions unless she's incapacitated. And like we have to remember that and that might make people feel uncomfortable. But we know that ACOG says and recommends that all birthing people have the right to accept or decline any care even if it's to the demise of them or their baby. And that's really hard for people to hear but I say it so that people can go,

Hannah Atterberry (01:16:12.508)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (01:16:13.482)
I have that much say. And that doesn't mean you don't work collaboratively with your provider and need their expertise. So it's not saying don't, it's just understanding that when we take the power out of the birthing person's hands, it negatively impacts their experience and their start off to parenthood. So for dads listening, for anyone listening, that's the goal is that when something's happening to us and if you can put yourself in any situation where you've received medical care and you felt like you didn't have any say,

and that felt awful, like that's it. We're just trying to take that away and make sure that we don't have people feeling negatively about their birth experience. Simple. Period.

Hannah Atterberry (01:16:54.919)
Period.

Rachael Hutchins (01:16:58.542)
But Hannah, we've talked about so much. I could keep talking endlessly with you and I talk to you all day every day. It's really astonishing how there's just still so much to talk about. So we will have to have another time to extend the conversation because I know there's so much more we want to cover. But that will be all for today. Do you have any closing thoughts or considerations or anything you want to share?

Hannah Atterberry (01:17:08.563)
I'm

Hannah Atterberry (01:17:26.195)
I don't think so. think if we start doing Closing Thoughts, we'll have another 45 minute podcast. So I think we covered a lot. This has been so much fun. Yeah, think, yeah, it was just a lot of fun.

Rachael Hutchins (01:17:41.902)
Okay, well thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom and for your time. And I hope if you're listening that there's a nugget in there that you can take away, maybe some new things you've learned. And of course, if you like what you've heard, we would completely appreciate if you left us a review and subscribe to the show and we will have a new episode out in a couple weeks. Thanks and have a great day.