Ep 170: Taking a Holistic Approach to Postpartum Care: Interview with CPM Brenda Parrish

In this episode Dr. Shannon interviews Brenda Parrish, a certified professional midwife, about midwifery care and postpartum care. Brenda shares her journey into midwifery, her passion for providing mothers with the kind of birth experience she wished she had, the importance of postpartum care and the challenges faced by midwives in Georgia. They discuss the importance of informed decision-making and the need for balance between home birth and hospital birth. Brenda also highlights the significance of chiropractic care and childbirth education in preparing for birth. She shares her passion for providing comprehensive postpartum care and her new business venture, Nurtured Beginnings. They also touch on topics such as preconception counseling, body image after birth, and the need for better healthcare support for new mothers.  The conversation concludes with a discussion about the challenges faced by midwives in Georgia and the need for legislative change. 

Resources:

National Associate of Certified Professional Midwives

Connect with Brenda:

Instagram

Traditional Birth Services

A Midwife’s Guide to Postpartum

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:02.349)
Hello, hello, you are listening to the Aligned Birth Podcast. Thank you, thank you for listening. I'm Dr. Shannon, one of the hosts of the show. And today is gonna be an interview day. And it's always fun trying to interview fellow birth workers because it's always, yes, I would love to be on the show as long as I'm not at a birth. And so we've had lots of conversations with this guest today about like where she's at. So we've got a certified professional midwife on today. So that's part of the reason why she's all over the place. But Brenda Parrish is joining.

us and we're gonna talk about midwifery care but we're also gonna lean quite a bit into postpartum care and postpartum thoughts and things to be aware of because she recently authored a book about it. So to give a little background for Ms. Brenda here, she said she's been a baby catcher for 30 years. She started in the southern part of Georgia so she is a Metro Atlanta local home birth midwife. Job change for her husband, had them move to Atlanta.

And her practice got started pretty quickly just because that home birth crunchy mom vibe grew pretty quickly in the state. She said she jumped through some hoops, became a certified professional midwife in 2011. And they have a thriving state organization and she's the current president of that as well. And now she's authored a book for moms to prepare and guide them through the postpartum season of life.

because it is such an often ignored subject. She loves providing care with families, encouraging healthier lifestyle habits to achieve a healthier pregnancy and birth. She's very passionate about breastfeeding as well. And so she received training as a CLC, so the Certified Lactation Counselor, to help troubleshoot some issues there. And so I'm so excited to have you on the show today, Brenda.

Brenda (01:44.728)
Thank you for inviting me. It's been quite a journey this week to make sure I could get here, but here we are.

Dr. Shannon (01:51.058)
I know our emails back and forth have been hilarious. It's just it's I mean, it's the true nature of like the unpredictability of birth, you know, like the nature of surrendering to

Brenda (01:59.052)
Yes, yes. It's been raining. It's been raining here in the Atlanta area and raining babies this week as well, because in checking in with some of the other midwives, I'm finding out that they also had two moms in labor at the same time all week long. So it's been rather eventful week and exciting and a lot of missed sleep, but we are.

Dr. Shannon (02:06.253)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (02:13.677)
same

Dr. Shannon (02:22.221)
Yeah, yeah, I know. You were like, I'll be here. I just don't know if I will have had any sleep. Because I know you weren't even at home last night. You said you were spending the night close to a mom who might be having a baby and you're kind of traveling back and forth. That's the nature of... It's still down. Yeah, still waiting on that baby. So give me some insight. You said you've been doing this for 30 years. Give me some insight to what brought you into the midwifery world and why this career for you.

Brenda (02:33.452)
Yes, we still don't, so we're still waiting on that one.

Brenda (02:47.818)
Yeah, I

had a really different midwifery beginning than a lot of people do. First of all, we have three children of our own and my husband and I experienced some fertility issues for about nine years. So we adopted our first child, a son, and then three years later we had a daughter the old fashioned way and then another daughter about three years later, again, the old fashioned way.

have adopted and biological children.

those biological children were born in the hospital unmedicated, but this was back in the 80s. And I would not call anything about those births natural, even though they were unmedicated, because there were a lot of things that are available today that were not available then. And I felt like the hospital had a definite attitude that much my babies belonged to them. And

Dr. Shannon (03:40.354)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (03:54.918)
to me. was only a they they didn't room in back then and so they would take my babies away and I wouldn't see them until it was time to feed them and they had them on a formula schedule like I only got to see them every four hours. So I didn't get to feed them on demand. So there was so much that went on there that was just not a happy event for me you know. And then years later when they

Dr. Shannon (04:10.825)
Wow.

Brenda (04:24.704)
were all like preteens and teens, I had a really good friend who was a midwife and she was doing home birth and the person who typically assisted her was going to be out of town and she said, would you like to go along with me and kind of assist me at a birth? You could just hand me things. And I was like, hard can that be? Of course I can go and hand you things. So I went with her to that birth and witnessed my first home birth and I was hooked from that moment on.

Dr. Shannon (04:47.329)
Yeah.

Brenda (04:55.313)
because it was the kind of birth that I wish that I had had and was deprived of. And so I became very passionate about providing other mothers with the kind of birth that I wish that I had had.

Dr. Shannon (04:58.7)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (05:05.793)
Mm -hmm.

Yes, that is like such a thing with birth workers though sometimes you have that one experience because that's kind of exactly what led me to where I am to be like, wait, this could be different. I've got to tell people that this could be different. Yes.

Brenda (05:21.462)
Yes, yes, and I wanted to train to be that person. Of course, you know, in the beginning, my practice was in South Georgia and I literally was the only home birth midwife south of Macon.

Dr. Shannon (05:34.049)
Mmm.

Brenda (05:34.882)
So I had a pretty big travel radius all the way to the East Coast to the West Coast of Georgia in this in the south and pretty much most everything, you know, under making and everything. So I wasn't as busy then as I am now. And I'll have to tell you that I kind of came to the Atlanta area kicking and screaming because even though our daughters were here and I was looking forward to being close to them, my philosophy was Atlanta is just swamped

home birth midwives and I am the only midwife south of Macon and I've spoiled a lot of families for home birth and I just don't want to abandon them, you know.

Dr. Shannon (06:06.42)
Dr. Shannon (06:10.123)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (06:14.039)
Mm

Brenda (06:15.574)
My thought was they don't really need me in Atlanta, but they really need me down here, you know, but you know, I'm married and you kind of want to live with your husband. his job facilitated him moving here. So I came and I was busy even before I officially moved here. I was finishing up births down there and traveling up here and doing prenatals and finishing up births down there and coming up doing prenatals until all of them got done in South Georgia and I could be here permanently.

Dr. Shannon (06:24.051)
Yeah, yes, there's some sacrifices that are made.

Dr. Shannon (06:33.186)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (06:44.85)
I have been busy ever since, ever since.

Dr. Shannon (06:47.349)
Yeah, I was gonna say I bet you noticed that it was like, wait, no, I am needed here.

Brenda (06:52.48)
Yes, and we still need more midwives because we still have to turn people away and we need them spread out. know, most of us are in the metro area or surrounding area and we still have lot of areas that aren't covered and so we need more midwives in Georgia but we'll go into a little bit of that in a minute about the whole issue with Georgia. Yeah, what can we say?

Dr. Shannon (06:58.231)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:04.033)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:18.189)
Georgia we're just an issue in itself. No, yeah, yeah exactly. So I Love again to and I mentioned that that experience that you had that led you, you know into what you're doing now, so Golly, it's hard to kind of sum up like, you know 30 years of catching of catching babies,

Brenda (07:22.456)
We're a little backwards.

Dr. Shannon (07:43.789)
I want you to touch on, because I know a home birth midwife or a home birth is not necessarily for everyone. I get that and I have almost had like a, I don't know if I'd say a 50 -50 split in the office of like the moms that I work with or who doing a home birth and who aren't, but with what you've seen, what are some things that you've kind of learned from moms over the years as you've been catching babies?

Brenda (08:10.976)
Well, you know, a lot of people come to this decision from various backgrounds and also from various decision making points. And some of them come out of fear. And that's not always the most ideal client, you know, to work with.

you want them to be running towards something because it's what they desire and they're well prepared for that. And not all moms really are some of them just have been so scared of the hospital and what the hospital does and provides and, you know, traditional allopathic providers and that kind of thing. And that's not really the best place to be because, you know, as a midwife who provides care for mothers and are hopefully low risk mothers and low

babies. That's what we excel at is low risk mothers and low risk babies. So I have come to the place where there is a definite need for and a place for hospital births and more, if you want to call it allopathic care anyway. So I don't really believe that home birth is for everyone. I want them to be here because it's their first choice, but

Dr. Shannon (09:20.814)
Mm

Brenda (09:30.432)
also want there to be some balance in there in that if their path of birth takes them in a different direction than what we were hoping, that they are open to the fact that their birth may need to transition to a different kind of care than what we can provide for them safely at home. Case in point, the birth that we had this week that she just delivered last night in the hospital, vaginally, thank the Lord, but she'd been

Dr. Shannon (09:58.124)
Mm

Brenda (10:00.288)
labor for more than 48 hours. Water broken, GBS negative, which was, I'm thankful for that, but just not progressing and had been throwing up pretty much from the very first contraction. So for her and her situation, an epidural was a gift because it allowed her to sleep and rest and quit throwing up.

Dr. Shannon (10:05.004)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:10.463)
Yeah, definitely.

Dr. Shannon (10:17.441)
Hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:29.611)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (10:30.162)
and some added betosan finally got that cervix opening up where she could have her baby vaginally. So I'm very grateful for what they offer, but I'm also very passionate about what we offer as well, you know.

Dr. Shannon (10:45.835)
Yeah, well, and I think you've got to have that skill set to say, yes, we're working with the normal physiological birth, but to have that skill set, like you were saying, and that training and that knowledge to be like, we need some sort of intervention here, some sort of help here as well too, and helping moms navigate that, the unpredictability of birth.

Brenda (10:55.16)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (11:11.711)
I think that's sometimes, I mean, in dealing with moms, that's always seems to be the biggest thing. Like, I don't know, you just don't know. And it's like, you got to be okay with that.

Brenda (11:19.5)
You don't. And you try to prepare them for that, you know, in the prenatal appointments, you know, we talk about the possibility and honestly, most midwives will tell you that first time moms, there's a higher incidence of first time moms transferring in than a mom who's had some babies before. They're just, you're going to have a lot longer labor, and it may or may not be dysfunctional, but it's going to be longer and sometimes they just get tired

Dr. Shannon (11:39.841)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (11:44.459)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (11:49.376)
and they're just like, done here. And there's no shame in that. There's absolutely no shame in that. No midwife worth her salt should try to shame anyone or say that it's inappropriate. Because it's the mom's birth, and she gets to all those shots.

Dr. Shannon (11:51.519)
Yeah, I'm done. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (12:05.343)
Mm -hmm Exactly. Yeah, you're doing what you can to support. Yeah to support them in every way possible What are some things that you do wish that moms knew about? Birth I mean, I know we kind of chatted a little bit about there but if there's if there's things that you've seen like over the years to where it's like, Well, if there's like a nugget of information, you know, I wish you knew this about

Brenda (12:31.384)
Wow, I could probably build a wall with those little nuggets, but... Well, you know, it's gonna hurt.

Dr. Shannon (12:34.313)
I know.

Brenda (12:44.41)
And having a baby that, and you'll love this, having a baby that's well aligned, it can make or break the way your birth goes. And that is something we talk about heavily in prenatal care. I always tell them my own story about chiropractic care with myself and our children and stories from clients. And sometimes they wait and want

Dr. Shannon (12:53.985)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (13:13.706)
to like toward the end when that baby's malposition, they finally get around to getting prenatal care with a chiropractor. And then the chiropractor has their work cut out for them to try to correct issues at the last minute, you know, that probably needed a good six months or so to try to correct and stuff. I really think chiropractic care is a huge piece of this picture and getting a really good solid childbirth class under your belt that

Dr. Shannon (13:23.841)
Yeah, we do.

huh.

Brenda (13:44.076)
prepares you with some coping measures, lets you know what a normal newborn does and what they look like and what's normal and what's not normal. And we have some discussions about preparing for postpartum and is somebody gonna come into your home and help you? Do you have friends or a mother or relatives or?

a neighbor, is your church gonna do a meal train for you? Is there somebody gonna be there with your other children if it's not their first child, you know? So having those discussions, I think is critical for heading into a birth fully armed and, you know, fully ready to take on the task.

Dr. Shannon (14:09.931)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (14:29.429)
Yeah, and being informed. mean, that's sometimes too where it's like, I'd rather moms know certain words as far as like doula. You know, I remember with my hospital birth, I don't even think I heard the word doula. I never even knew anything about it, you know, with my practices. So it's like, sometimes it's, I'd rather a mom know these words and choose not to use those services than go and be like, well, I didn't know about that, you know?

Brenda (14:42.519)
Right.

Dr. Shannon (14:54.081)
Like, and I know you're probably the same, that's where that good like childbirth education class comes in, something independent from if you're birthing in a hospital, specific to that.

Brenda (14:54.378)
Exactly.

Brenda (15:01.622)
Yes, someone that's not, I mean, hospital based.

providers for childbirth education tend to, they're employed by the hospital. And so their job is to make you a nice, compliant patient, and not necessarily prepare you for a natural birth. So I do get a lot of confusion though with the general public about the difference between a doula and a midwife. And I don't think they realize there's a vast difference that preparing to be a midwife

Dr. Shannon (15:14.732)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. So it's pretty much, yeah, just hospital policies class. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (15:29.919)
Hmm, yeah.

Dr. Shannon (15:34.675)
Yeah, so what do you tell them the difference is?

Brenda (15:37.25)
a three to a five year process of schooling and clinical training and jumping through all the hoops, you know, so.

Dr. Shannon (15:45.739)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Okay. So jumping through some hoops. What's what is your what's going on now with you? What is your practice? I know and whatever you want to share, know, obviously, but it's Yeah

Brenda (15:56.36)
We have to get around to this some point, don't we? I'm fine. I'm very transparent right now. I've just sort of developed an attitude of who cares. my lawyer would probably faint right now. I don't care.

Dr. Shannon (16:07.661)
I think every midwife probably I think I feel like a lot of midwives get to that. what what yeah over the years as your practice has changed traditional birth services What does it look like now and maybe that segues us into a little bit of the book as well too that you made and like the need and necessity for

Brenda (16:32.715)
Well, you know, in beginning I was a traditional midwife, honestly, because I was in South Georgia, there were no preceptors there. And I was trained by a traditional midwife. so, and I was the only choice that they had. So nobody really cared if I had letters behind my name or not, you know, I just had the training. But when I moved to Atlanta, I realized that I was going to be competing in the market against

Dr. Shannon (16:52.065)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (17:01.44)
who were certified and so I felt like that was important and I had multiple mentors then that walked me through that process and spent some time in El Paso at a birth center did a

did an internship there and attended every workshop across the whole United States that I could attend, you know, to learn the hands -on skills when I worked with several Homeworth midwives and stayed with them for periods of time to let them train me until I could, you know, jump through the hoops with NARM, which is our certifying body, and become a certified professional midwife. And I totally respect the

Dr. Shannon (17:37.355)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (17:44.96)
because it's not an easy one. It involves numbers of observations, certain numbers you have to accomplish with assisting another midwife, and then a certain number of births that you have to do where you are the primary but you're under supervision. And then you have to have skills checked off, 45 pages of skills, and then you have to pass an eight hour

Dr. Shannon (17:48.492)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (18:05.269)
Mm

Brenda (18:14.884)
written exam as well. So it's stringent, but it gives it gives us a path and it at least, you know, explains to the world that there was a path you had to follow, and that your skills and your educational background are intact, you know, and that that you're not reinventing a wheel every time you've got you have a path to follow predictable, you know. So

Dr. Shannon (18:17.887)
Mm -hmm. That's a lot. Yeah.

Mm

Dr. Shannon (18:32.467)
Mm -hmm You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know certain things. Mm

Brenda (18:43.432)
I have always been involved, even when I lived in South Georgia with our state organization, Georgia Midwifery Association. And I have practiced easily and transferred mothers in as necessary. have several hospitals that have been my favorites, you know, to transfer into because the reception was always kind and respectful and my mothers got what they needed. The charge nurses loved me because I would call ahead and let them know what was coming.

Dr. Shannon (19:12.993)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (19:13.248)
and fax records to them so that they had everything they needed to pick up care for that particular mom. And I did that for 30 years. So the CPM, Certified Professional Midwife, is a national certification. And they are licensed in 39 states now here in the United States. They're licensed in Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina.

all the surrounding states, but not Georgia. So I think as long as you do a good job and basically stay off the radar, it really hasn't been too much of a problem.

Dr. Shannon (19:45.963)
Not Georgia.

Brenda (20:01.612)
The way the statute is stated right now legally for us here in Georgia, we are all practicing illegally. We are all taking a risk every time we take a client and every time we do a home birth and every time we transfer. We are taking a risk with our life and our career. And so back in May, I transferred appropriately a mom, a first time mom to a hospital.

mention which one. It actually was one of my favorite ones, but the first person that saw my client was a female obstetrician who obviously did not have much history with home birth transfers and she decided to report me to the state nursing board which oversees midwifery here in Georgia.

Dr. Shannon (20:58.156)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (20:59.346)
And so that began an investigation and it's serious, it's a criminal investigation. And so my lawyer informed me that probably the best course for me to follow would be to retire.

Dr. Shannon (21:05.429)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

Brenda (21:16.049)
So in November, I'm committed to finishing up the clients that I have currently on the books. And so I just did not take any new clients after November and I will be done. I'm 69 years old and, you know, retirement was certainly something I've thought about and was thinking maybe in another year and a half because I have a student currently that I really wanted

Dr. Shannon (21:43.841)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (21:45.274)
finish up and she's been very committed to work with me, traveling a pretty long distance to be with me for clinic days and births that are way out of her travel range. So she's had to find a new preceptor to work with and that was difficult for me. But here's the thing.

Dr. Shannon (22:05.739)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (22:09.792)
A lot of these CPMs here in Georgia are young and they haven't been practicing very long. They're just starting their careers. Mine was on the tail end and they have invested a lot of money in getting their degrees. They've invested a lot of time and money in babysitters and traveling and being an apprentice with a midwife. And you can't hold down a job when you are an apprentice because you have to be available all the time.

they have foregone other jobs and other income while they're working on becoming a CPM and so they have so much more to lose than I do because if this happened to them their career is over basically and they're just starting out I'm finishing up and they're starting out and so they have a lot to lose so

Every year, as long as I remember, we have introduced a bill to the legislature here in Georgia. Georgia has a 45 day legislative session starting in January every year. And in order to get a bill passed, it has to be introduced in either the House or the Senate, has to go through a process of submitting it to a committee that would be appropriate committee. They have to have meetings and discuss it and hearings and all the things. then if they

Dr. Shannon (23:09.793)
Mm

Brenda (23:35.76)
to they can present it to either the House or Senate whichever one you submit it to for a vote and then if it passes then it goes to the other house and you have to start that process all over again for the House and the Senate the state House and State Senate and you have to get that all done in 45 days. So it's not an easy process it works better when you have lobbyist which the Georgia Medical

can afford the best and we little lowly midwives cannot. So that's been difficult, know, to hire a lobbyist and all of the meetings that you go to and you're trying to introduce the whole concept of home birth and CPMs and everything to every senator and every representative that.

you could have a voice, know, that kind of thing. we're going to introduce another bill this January. We'll see how it goes. One of the people working on it, also she helped author the bill that they currently have in Utah.

Dr. Shannon (24:34.611)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (24:43.947)
Okay.

Brenda (24:44.535)
So, you know, she's got the wording down pat and is probably hoping to pull from a lot of what they did in Utah for us to have a good bill as well. But the NACPM is the National Association of Certified Professional Midwives and they have been our legislative branch kind of. They have been responsible for wording and introducing a bill every year. And they have we have a Georgia branch of that.

Dr. Shannon (25:03.937)
Mm

Brenda (25:13.28)
So I would suggest that people look that up online, the Georgia, yes, the Georgia branch of the NACP. She has, well, she's been the president, but right now Lindsay Hughes is. So.

Dr. Shannon (25:15.979)
I was just about to say, what can we do? Yeah. And I see this, feel like Missy Burgess, does she do a lot with this?

Okay. Okay. Because I know these names and I see these words and it's like, okay, what can we do? Yeah, to help those Georgia midwives.

Brenda (25:32.366)
Well, so on their website, when you first pull up their website,

you can put your email in so that you get updates. So you will know when a bill is introduced, you will know the bill number, you will know when it's time to contact people. So that is probably the most important thing that anybody could do is go and just sign up for updates by putting your name in there and being on their email list. There is another link you can click on for contributions to help us pay for a lobbyist because they're not cheap. So there's

Dr. Shannon (25:42.284)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (26:04.887)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Brenda (26:07.306)
ways that a person could go about, you know, helping to get a different bill available here in Georgia. It's just it's high time folks. I mean, it's just it's ridiculous. It really is.

Dr. Shannon (26:18.874)
It is and like I almost I just I kind of tears in my eyes just listening to your story there too for how long you've been doing and you think of all the moms and the births because I don't know, know birth transforms you and and when you feel supported in that birth that impacts not only the birth but the postpartum the newborn the parent everything and so all that impact it's I feel like it transcends

Brenda (26:39.096)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (26:43.851)
birth, you know what I mean? Like it's bigger, you know? so, ugh, Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -mm. Exactly. I had this conversation last night in the office and we were talking about the number of women, because she's a counselor as well and deals with trauma and it's just how, ugh, that's just tough. How traumatic it can be, but it doesn't have to be, right?

Brenda (26:45.632)
It does. does. Women either are healed in their births or they're traumatized in their births. There's not a lot of neutral in there, you know. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (27:13.677)
With that support, okay, so I'm what I'll I'll get the links. I'm gonna put the links to the show notes in there and so that way people can can follow and I don't know help to To make a difference for our midwives for those. Yeah, low -risk normal physiological births

Brenda (27:19.448)
Yes.

Brenda (27:29.122)
Yeah, well, you know, we've kind of spoiled them. We've kind of spoiled them here in Georgia by giving them their home births without a lot of responsibility on their part. We're the ones that are taking on all the risk and they are getting their home births because we're basically defying the law and giving them their births, whether they, whether we're licensed or not, but they don't realize how close they are to losing their providers.

Dr. Shannon (27:36.769)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (27:40.737)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

you're taking on the risk. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (27:56.927)
Yeah, that's so tough. did you have this thought in mind with this this postpartum guide? Was this something you already had in mind that you wanted to do and this just pushed it a little bit sooner or?

Brenda (28:21.802)
Yeah, all the above. Well, I love postpartum care. I love it. I love going back into the home and really tweaking what's going on with breastfeeding, know, a mom.

Dr. Shannon (28:22.551)
How does, yeah, so how does, yeah, you're like, well, all right then.

Dr. Shannon (28:31.105)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (28:43.426)
you know, is already having sore nipples and we're like, okay, well, you know, we've talked about this latch, but let's let's get the baby latched and see what we're doing here, you know, and really helping them with that. And they it's like you get a great latch and they look at you like, that doesn't hurt anymore. And you're like, Eureka, you know, I love it. I absolutely love it.

Dr. Shannon (29:04.237)
So here is what's crucial, what you just said though too, is you're going to the home and you're like, that's the kind of care we need. I was gonna say, speak to what does the prenatal care you probably have.

Brenda (29:11.094)
Yes.

Brenda (29:18.369)
It is.

Dr. Shannon (29:23.391)
A lot of in -home visits because that's where the birth is going to be. It's that in -home care. So you're meeting that family in that comfort and space. And then you continue into the postpartum, which you're probably seeing moms way earlier than they would in a traditional OB where you just go in and I feel like you just sit on a table and they clear you. There's nothing else to it. So I'm sure that's why the postpartum feels so good to you.

Brenda (29:40.718)
Right. Yeah. So, you know, if let me state a a a fact here about Georgia. I don't know if a lot of your listeners may realize that of all the 50 states, Georgia, I think currently is the 49th in maternal mortality.

We lose more mothers here in Georgia than almost every single state in the United States. And I believe that some of them are slipping through the cracks.

in that postpartum time, you know, obviously some are dying at birth and some are having complications from cesareans because we're doing way too many of those and all the things. moms can develop postpartum preeclampsia. And once they are discharged from the hospital and they go home, no one is looking at them for six to eight weeks when they go back to their obstetrician for their final postpartum. And that's it. They're taking their baby

Dr. Shannon (30:29.473)
the

Dr. Shannon (30:37.097)
yeah.

Brenda (30:50.114)
in possibly to their pediatrician, but no one has eyes on the mom. And this is one of the reasons why I really enjoy visiting with the moms afterwards. We're making sure that that blood pressure is normal. We want to make sure that if you know she's had a little tear and some sutures that that's healing well. We want to make sure she's getting some sleep. She's getting some yummy food in her tummy, that people are helping her, that things are going well with the baby.

Dr. Shannon (30:54.519)
Mm -mm.

Brenda (31:19.966)
is not getting jaundice. Midwives do something called the CCHD which is a congenital.

Brenda (31:29.029)
We also can do the metabolic screen that they do in the hospital. The baby has to be older than 24 hours to do those tests and for them to be accurate. We're doing that in the home as well. Making sure baby is doing well, not losing too much weight, making sure mom's milk comes in, making sure the baby starts gaining again once that milk is in. We're coming back multiple times to see that mother baby after the birth occurs. If there are

And we're referring her, you know, into a hospital for different care or whatever. So I absolutely love this and I think this is one of the areas that midwives shine.

But even as much as we feel like we're doing a good job at this, there's only so much time you have with the family to prepare them for everything, everything, you know, and you get a lot of questions, you know, like, how much bleeding is normal? How long should this go on? You know, sometimes we forget to tell them you're going to have paper between your legs for a good month, you know. It's like nobody told you that. maybe we should have told you that, you know.

Dr. Shannon (32:34.484)
huh.

Dr. Shannon (32:38.407)
Well, and I love so on the back of the book that you authored the the one of the little excerpts says she shares all the stuff your girlfriends forgot to tell you about those first weeks and months that follow the birth of a new baby and I was like, yes, you know, it's like the that's what you need. Yeah, like, here's this guy is going to tell you all these things that you really didn't know or expect, but that it is part of the postpartum process, know. hmm. Mm hmm.

Brenda (32:51.338)
I know, right? Right? Yes. Yes!

Brenda (33:03.498)
It is even how often you want to nurse your baby afterwards and what's typical for when your milk is going to come in and weight gain for the baby and with a lot of new moms, know, little tips to make life easier for diaper changes and like have have a changing station in different places in your house. Don't just always have to go to one place. Have some set up where you're going to be. And also don't try to get back to what's normal too soon. Hang out in the bedroom and

Dr. Shannon (33:21.707)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (33:31.07)
Mm -mm.

Brenda (33:33.442)
people wait on you because you childbirth is

is not just the birth but the after effects and everything go on for a long time and it takes a while for you to get your energy back and your strength back and hormones to level out and what's normal about those and like is a little baby blues okay and when does it veer off into a really a mood disorder and what are some things that if you have a light case of that that you might be able to take supplement wise that might

Dr. Shannon (34:08.791)
Mm

Brenda (34:09.294)
you through that process and then when to know when you're maybe in trouble and need a different level of care when you've got some mood disorders afterwards. Some of this is directed at your partner because a lot of times they are the first ones to recognize that maybe something's not right here and maybe my wife or partner needs some help, you know.

Dr. Shannon (34:25.38)
Mm

Dr. Shannon (34:30.165)
Yeah, but you get to be in the home and see that and the comfort level too. So you can watch the interaction as you go along. So you can even catch some things that maybe mom or dad isn't noticing or seeing as well. And I think that's key also because they're in their home and they're comfortable. You if you're going out somewhere and you're doing this, you know, OB checkup and it's just rushing around and it's you're on the clock, the time schedule of like, well, they've got others babies coming and those type of things. It's like, you may not feel

Brenda (34:43.064)
Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (34:59.671)
comfortable to go into all the nitty gritty details or how to ask for help as well too, which I think as I think as moms we're finding our voice more, especially in the birth world and just what I've seen, you know, over the years with it, but that still makes sense.

Brenda (35:06.497)
Right.

Brenda (35:11.362)
Yep. Yep.

Brenda (35:17.442)
Well, a lot of times moms slough it off, you know, or they don't want to mention, you know, that they're having issues or suffering or whatever. So not only, you know, the home visits, but once I have once one of my students is pretty proficient at this, I usually have them make a phone call to moms right around the three week mark and just go through a series of questions with them. And mood disorders are one of the things we talk about, you know, like

Dr. Shannon (35:25.186)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (35:45.484)
Are you struggling with this? Because don't struggle in silence. Let someone know. We may can help or we may can direct you to some resources that will help you too.

Dr. Shannon (35:49.323)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (35:54.571)
Right, yeah. Or to say like, you know what? That makes total sense what you're going through and what you're feeling. Here are some resources, you know? It's not, yeah. And I tend to end up seeing moms, because I do like a postpartum specific exam as well. Granted, you know, they're coming to the office, but I tend to see moms before the six week mark too, because I'm like, there's no contraindication to you coming in. And then we can

Brenda (36:00.598)
Yep. Yep.

Dr. Shannon (36:20.417)
We process the birth then as well and we kind of go through, okay, what happened here? How are you feeling here? Like, you know, all of those things. And I think those little touch points with postpartum are so, are so important. I want to show, okay, so we do put this up on YouTube. So for, if you're listening on the podcast, sorry, but here it's the midwives guide to postpartum. So here's the beautiful picture of Brenda's book. I know I bought my copy.

Brenda (36:26.946)
Yes, agreed.

Dr. Shannon (36:47.883)
to have in the office because I was like, ooh, I'm gonna be able to like do my lending library, send this to moms or be like, okay, go to this chapter in this book. I'm so, yes, I'm so, exactly, exactly like, you're right at this chapter in the book. what things does it cover? And also the aspect that postpartum is not

Brenda (36:57.39)
Yes, Chapter 3 would be great for you right now. Whatever.

Dr. Shannon (37:16.981)
you know, six to eight weeks. Like when I'm looking at postpartum care with a mom, I'm almost in like, this is a whole other trimester, you know? And then even after that, to me, postpartum is forever because my body is forever changed. And so when we're doing any sort of exercise or anything, it's just, I'm completely different in a good way. So I've often called it like, I'm coming, instead of coming back, you know, it's the comeback. It's more of like, I say, I'm coming into, like this is a new.

Brenda (37:31.682)
Yes. Yes.

Dr. Shannon (37:44.109)
This is a new, I'm a new person in like a good way. this guide, hopefully you're talking a little bit too, as far as like it's the beginning of postpartum, know? So those first few weeks, what chapters, what things does it go through?

Brenda (37:46.678)
Yes. Yes.

Brenda (38:00.8)
It goes all the way through, well, we talk a little bit about not only breastfeeding moms, but formula feeding moms, because I didn't want to leave them out. realized that as passionate as I am about breastfeeding, everyone doesn't or can't, doesn't, may not work for them for various reasons. And I want them to be armed with information as well. And it talks about choosing a pediatrician that aligns with

philosophy of raising children and what you want them exposed to and not exposed to. It talks about the possibility of returning to work.

and finding care providers and if you're breastfeeding, know, the pumping issues and all those fun things. But it also talks about incorporating other siblings into this new dynamic with a new baby and how to ease that and the mother guilt that comes along with, now my attention is spread out and how do I make the other children feel needed and

for even though this baby is taking up 99 % of my time, you know. I've always got a kid attached here and the other kids are like...

Dr. Shannon (39:17.188)
huh, yes. I was gonna say, always attached.

Brenda (39:21.558)
Exactly. And so how do you incorporate that? And then your partner, how do you keep them involved with care and coming into alignment with some of the parenting decisions that need to be made together and having those discussions openly and in a friendly, non -combative way? And then making your

Dr. Shannon (39:45.407)
Mm -hmm. Are you telling us to set boundaries? I love it. Yes.

Brenda (39:49.504)
Yes, exactly. Well, and also like even visitors after the birth, know, and setting boundaries there. And, you know, in like maybe setting up your spouse or your partner may have one idea of just having everybody come whenever they want and they want their mother to come and you're like, No, I only want my

all these things that you would need to talk about, know, so it's all that is in there. And then making your partner feel a part of the process, but also making sure that you two stay one while you are exhausted and recovering from birth yourself and moving into different phases of the whole postpartum experience. All it talks about all of that, all of

Dr. Shannon (40:36.653)
I was gonna say you go into the physiology of postpartum. And you've been on social media too, even sharing lots of just like recipes that I've seen or things with like working on hormones and looking at that, cause that's a huge hormonal shift in postpartum. So I love that you talk about that. You've got the breastfeeding, sleep, navigating the emotional landscape after birth, strengthening the partnership.

Brenda (40:40.653)
Yep.

Brenda (40:55.222)
Yes, it is.

Brenda (41:06.864)
Yep. Sleep deprivation, what that feels like.

Dr. Shannon (41:07.133)
daily life, baby care basics, yeah yeah yeah exactly embracing your evolution into motherhood i just i'm very very excited about this book and what you have

Brenda (41:22.85)
Well, and also appreciating what your body just did. There's such a push for moms to get their body back and to look like they did before they were pregnant. I'm sorry, but we go through changes. Unless you're like a bodybuilder or you're heading into making a new movie or something like that, your body is probably not going to look quite like it did. It paid a price, but it paid a price for you to have the privilege of being a mother.

Dr. Shannon (41:26.635)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (41:32.077)
Shut up.

Dr. Shannon (41:46.796)
No.

Dr. Shannon (41:52.3)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (41:52.784)
And you need to appreciate what your body did. It was miraculous. could get kind of teary -eyed talking about this because you have created a person and that was no easy and you birthed that person. And for many of you, you're feeding that person. It's miraculous from start to finish. And we need to be in a place in our culture where we appreciate the task that we women have, you know, and have been given.

Dr. Shannon (41:58.593)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:08.162)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:12.855)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (42:20.907)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (42:22.714)
privilege and the honor but also just falling in love with what your body did and not expecting miraculous changes, you know.

Dr. Shannon (42:32.253)
Right and honoring honoring what it did but then I think we should really pump up the the aspect of like rest. I did nothing after birth for six that's great you know it's not like a I ran you know a 5k afterwards no it's it's it's another you know there's the other side of it which I know it can be tough but that's important mentally I'll never forget after

Brenda (42:51.286)
Yes.

Dr. Shannon (42:59.001)
after my first, because you still look pregnant. I don't think people, I don't think I knew that. Like you have your baby and like you'll still look pregnant. I was like, what is that? yeah, like I had no idea.

Brenda (43:04.278)
you

Yes, you will. People go like, what are you about, 4 March? You're like, no, I just had a baby a few weeks ago.

Dr. Shannon (43:13.261)
And I was at Target and I was returning something and I had my baby in like the stroller and God bless the young man that was working customer service, but he was like, when are you due? And I was like, I am gonna murder this kid. That baby's right here. my God, I will never forget that. So like, and I know he didn't mean anything by it, but it's little things like that. This is the girlfriend's guy. Like you're gonna still look pregnant and it's okay, it's okay.

Brenda (43:19.322)
no.

Brenda (43:35.394)
Peace! I know.

Brenda (43:42.476)
I know, I know. Now, I really like to focus mom's attention on what are you eating and how can we make your diet nutrient dense and make you more aware? Because I'd rather see somebody focused on being healthy than being having a six pack. You know what I mean? I want you to be healthy. Yes.

Dr. Shannon (43:44.725)
I know, birth changes us.

Dr. Shannon (43:51.051)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (43:59.999)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Or dropping weight. Sometimes that's not the metric to look at. It's because if you're nursing and feeding baby, I need you to eat and drink, but I want it to be good, nutritious food. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Brenda (44:10.595)
Yes.

Brenda (44:14.678)
Yes, yes, put good stuff in you. Yeah, and then you'll be healthy and everything else will kind of balance out really. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (44:19.977)
It balances out. Yeah. I know. I love it. Anything else that you want to add that we didn't chat about today?

Brenda (44:32.76)
Well, as I transition out of midwifery, you we're going to be moving to South Georgia. And I have a mom down there who is in assisted living. I have a sister that is a lot of her care has fallen on her shoulders. And so it gives me a lot of satisfaction to know that I can be helpful in this situation. but I'm starting another business down there. I'm calling it Nurtured Beginnings. And I'm going to offer postpartum care to

Dr. Shannon (44:38.945)
Okay.

Dr. Shannon (44:48.523)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (44:59.659)
That's what I saw.

Brenda (45:02.784)
that have probably had a baby in the hospital and no one is taking care of them. I would like to also add preconception counseling because for years I have said if I could get a hold of moms before they ever get pregnant we could help them have a healthier pregnancy. You know we can work on their nutritional status we could talk about things like MTHFR and making sure that you're not getting folic acid but real folate and all the things we could really make a

Dr. Shannon (45:06.847)
and no one's checking on them.

Dr. Shannon (45:17.025)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (45:29.63)
And looking at the prunadels Did you do because you mentioned you you adopted at first and you had those fertility challenges So did you go through that yourself and in that? Conceptive journey and like really work on your health in or or

Brenda (45:32.634)
it's.

Brenda (45:45.612)
Well, I had, you know, I had an obstetrician who was taking me through all of the tests and all that, you know, all the fun stuff. But honestly, I'm not sure. There's a lot I can't talk about here. It's a little TMI, but, I

Dr. Shannon (45:59.809)
That's okay. But you know, sometimes there's no such thing as TMI we're talking about.

Brenda (46:04.834)
Well, you know, I feel like that when it all came down to it, it was my own observations about my own body and some things that were happening that I corrected that finally I got pregnant, you know.

Dr. Shannon (46:20.389)
Mm -hmm.

Brenda (46:22.038)
You know, we both, my husband and I both had some little minor things that were going on, but nothing that should have been keeping us from conceiving. And so it was me being more observant about my own body that I think that made me put some things into place that finally allowed us to conceive.

Dr. Shannon (46:31.638)
Hmm.

Dr. Shannon (46:35.927)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (46:39.967)
Yeah, but still you can use that that knowledge that you have in working with yeah in that preconceptive

Brenda (46:44.845)
Yes.

Brenda (46:48.162)
Yeah, I'm also working on becoming a naturopath.

because I really love thinking about and dealing with root causes. just I hate it that the allopathic world just throws pharmaceuticals at you and they don't really try to find out what your root causes are. And I want to find out what's the underlying cause for this and what can we do to correct that so that you're healthy, you know, and you're not on a pharmaceutical. So

Dr. Shannon (46:58.177)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (47:03.307)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (47:07.693)
Mm -hmm.

Dr. Shannon (47:19.623)
Look at you. All I can think of is just a giant like middle finger to the licensure. You know what I mean? Like this giant like, you think you can stop me? I'll show you. I'm gonna continue. Yeah, I'm gonna continue. Yes. my God.

Brenda (47:36.878)
As long as I'm not actually delivering the baby, I can still help mothers and I still have these skills that I've had for 30 years that I can help moms. so I am always going to be involved with mothers and helping them somehow through their pregnancies or after. I have more books in my head, so.

Dr. Shannon (47:47.315)
You are such an inspiration. I love it.

Dr. Shannon (47:53.778)
huh.

Of course you do. Well, I am here for it. I am here for it. This is such a treasure, my friend. so, so glad that we got to chat. So sorry to the mom who is still in labor, but we appreciate, we appreciate Brenda being able to join us today. Yeah, there you go. So we've done this dance before. Okay, so list out, you mentioned nurtured beginnings.

Brenda (48:12.416)
It's all right. She knows this is her habit. It's not our first baby together, Yes, we have.

Dr. Shannon (48:25.813)
That's where people can, is that where people can find you, reach out to you? Is that on Instagram only? Do you have a website? Okay.

Brenda (48:31.117)
Yes.

Brenda (48:34.67)
I do have a website, yes. And it has some information on it. It also just has a, you know, coming in January 2025 or whatever.

Dr. Shannon (48:42.703)
-huh. Yeah, okay, okay. I just want to link that there. I'm gonna link to where folks can purchase the book as well. And yeah, all the ways that people can reach out to you and then ways that people can really impact the birthing community in Georgia, because you shared some very, very scary, sad, infuriating news.

Brenda (48:53.078)
Yes.

Brenda (49:08.834)
Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Dr. Shannon (49:11.073)
statistics for Georgia. So we've got some work to do and I am so thankful that you are part of the work that we're doing. So thank you again.

Brenda (49:18.698)
Well, even though I'll be in South Georgia, I guarantee I will be here in January for those hearings for that new bill. And I will be talking to the committee members and telling them what happened and just telling them, look, guys, quit playing around. We need a need a bill. We need a law. know.

Dr. Shannon (49:24.287)
-huh.

Dr. Shannon (49:36.085)
Yeah, I know you will. Again, thank you so, much. I appreciate you being

Brenda (49:40.972)
You're so welcome. Thank you for the work that you do because I have such passion for people getting chiropractic care. It's just it's amazing. It makes all the difference in our moms.

Dr. Shannon (49:51.73)
I love the birth worker world and I love definitely being a part of it. so, yeah, again, thank you so, much. Tune in friends every Wednesday for a new episode.

Brenda (49:57.186)
Yes. Thank you.