Ep 158: Myth-Busting Prenatal and Pediatric Chiropractic Care

In this episode, Dr. Shannon and Doula Rachael discuss and myth-bust some common misconceptions about prenatal and pediatric chiropractic care. They address concerns about the safety and forcefulness of chiropractic adjustments for babies and pregnant women.  They emphasize the importance of finding trained professionals who are knowledgeable about working with pediatric patients and pregnant spines. They also highlight the different techniques and tools that can be used for adjustments, tailoring the approach to the individual's needs. 
The episode concludes with a discussion of the benefits of chiropractic care during pregnancy, including pain relief, enhanced overall well-being, and improved adaptation to physiological changes.

Takeaways

• Chiropractic care is safe and beneficial for babies and pregnant women when performed by trained professionals.
• There is no actuarial data showing an increase in adverse events from chiropractic adjustments for babies and pregnant women.
• Chiropractic adjustments for babies are very gentle and use minimal force, with the intention of restoring proper alignment and promoting optimal nervous system function.
• Chiropractic adjustments for pregnant women can be tailored to their specific needs and comfort, using techniques like the Webster technique and different tools.
• Chiropractic care during pregnancy can provide pain relief, enhance overall well-being, and improve adaptation to physiological changes.

References:

1. Chirofutures.org magazine article - Understanding the Gentle Touch: the delicate force behind chiropractic adjustments 
2. Best Practices for Chiropractic Care During Pregnancy

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Chapters

• 16:30 [Ad] A New Testament Gospera (A Sister Act Story), Act 1 - The Podcast Musical
• 17:20 (Cont.) Ep 158: Myth-Busting Prenatal and Pediatric Chiropractic Care

Transcript

Dr. Shannon (00:01.814)
Hi there, you are listening to the Aligned Birth Podcast. You have Dula Rachel here and you have me, Dr. Shannon, both hosts of the show and we are both here today to chat about a birthy topic. We typically sit and record and we do long recording sessions and so this is our number three recording of the morning. So I don't know if it sounds totally different from when we first start recording when we're fried-eyed and bushy-tailed.

But we wanted to chat today about myth-busting some things in the prenatal and pediatric chiropractic world. So if you have maybe dealt with a provider either for your child or for yourself if you're pregnant who have maybe said something as far as don't take your child to a chiropractor or don't go get adjusted during pregnancy because...

it's unsafe or there's the force that's used or the hypermobility of the joints, we're going to kind of myth bust those things today to help you kind of understand that a little bit better. So yeah, that's the topic of the day. Good to have you here, Rachel.

Rachael Hutchins (01:13.526)
Hi, Dr. Shannon. So excited to be here with you on this lovely Friday morning where we're recording all these fun topics. Um, I always enjoy doing it with you and learning from you. And, and I'm excited for this episode because I do feel like I have, there's going to be some things I learn and I think this is an important conversation because chiropractic care is I believe, and I know you do so important for overall health and wellbeing, uh, not just during pregnancy, but.

all the time from in from newborns to you know seniors it's it works for everyone and ah there are so many misconceptions about chiropractic care and i think the more you know the less you fear it and the less weird it seems i mean it's so normal to me but then i'll talk to some people and i realize oh this is a normal for everyone

Dr. Shannon (01:53.244)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (02:05.15)
Mm-hmm. That's what we call the chiropractic bubble. I just recently did that interview with Dr. Twyla and she is a chiropractor. We were in school together and she didn't want me to mention just because she was like, I don't want to think back to those PTSD like being back in school, but I was like, that's when we met. And I was like, we were in the chiropractic bubble where like everybody kind of...

Rachael Hutchins (02:23.489)
Oh.

Rachael Hutchins (02:28.17)
Yeah, like doesn't everybody think like this?

Dr. Shannon (02:29.71)
Does it? Yeah. And then you come out here and you're like, whoa, wait a minute. Because I hear a lot of a lot of varying statements from friends whose husband will not let their wife go to the chiropractor because they feel it is unsafe and they are typically in the medical profession. I'm just going to throw that out there. I hear that most often than not. There's lots of things within that statement that I don't.

Rachael Hutchins (02:51.798)
Mmm.

Dr. Shannon (02:58.062)
Don't sit well with me, right? Right? There's lots of things. But this discussion came about, and I guess we'll talk about this. So there's a few little myth-busting things that we'll do in here. So there's one going to be like chiropractic, maybe dangerous for babies and pregnant women. We're going to go through that. The myth of like hypermobility in the child's spine.

Rachael Hutchins (02:58.714)
Uh, yeah. I don't know if you want to go down that rabbit hole.

Dr. Shannon (03:22.346)
the myth of like adjustments being too forceful for pregnant women and then also hypermobility and pregnancy and if there's a problem and making that unsafe for women. So those are kind of the myths that I wanted to go through. Then we'll highlight some of the benefits, but this is based on, I don't know if I can link the actual article because it's in a magazine that I don't have like the rights to and I don't think it's like a, it's a publication from my malpractice and so I.

pay for it so I get this. Does that make sense? I don't know if I can put it out there. But I've highlighted things. But I mean, my malpractice care is like, yeah, of course you can talk about it. So that's where the article came from and it's really good. They've got a lot of research kind of backed with it as well. So the first one that they had mentioned or what we're talking about is, and you may have heard this as far as chiropractic may be dangerous for babies.

Rachael Hutchins (03:53.704)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (04:18.142)
Um, in the aspect of sometimes I'll hear pediatricians or parents will come in and say, am I, you know, My pediatrician doesn't want me to go because it's um, it's not safe Like just the blanket statement of that Yeah, and it's just kind of like, okay. Um, so the first thing that It comes to mind with that or with some of the research is that there's no actuarial Data showing like an increase in adverse events from adjustments

Rachael Hutchins (04:30.958)
blanket statement.

Dr. Shannon (04:47.498)
and the millions of adjustments that occur every year, there's no actuarial data associated with that. So that's one aspect of it. The next one that's, and I usually tell families this, is that right now, my malpractice values and prices vary from company to company and that type of thing, but they're typically...

hundreds to maybe just a few thousand dollars. Mine's under a thousand dollars a year, my malpractice. So when you look at that compared to a medical profession, which if they are doing more invasive things and there are more risks involved with the care that they're giving, then their malpractice prices and values should reflect the risk. And that's exactly what is shown there. So.

Rachael Hutchins (05:36.898)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (05:40.33)
That's kind of the big ones that they had kind of talked about in that article as far as like, well, there's no kind of research to back it up. And it's like, oh, okay. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's different. Now, with that being said, you're going to want to find trained professionals, because not everybody is trained to work with pediatric patients. I love when chiropractors know what their wheelhouse is and also know what it isn't. Because I constantly refer people out.

Rachael Hutchins (05:45.271)
Sort of like, okay, let's split that on its head.

Rachael Hutchins (05:57.463)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (06:02.99)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (06:08.586)
because they're just not the best patient for my office and they need more support. They need more knowledge in another area I don't do a lot of you know, car accident cases and all these type of things. So there's a lot Different there. So it's also, you know knowing who you're taking your child to but I Guess there's the aspect of people are concerned about the force that's used with adjustments and

Rachael Hutchins (06:20.049)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (06:38.766)
The newborn adjustment is very, I always tell parents, I'm like, it looks like I'm not doing anything. But I promise there's a lot going on here. It's very, very gentle. It should be very gentle. There should just be fingertips, use pads of the fingers for the adjustment. Sometimes there's a little bit of an impulse, like a vibrational, what we call like toggle recoil a little bit there, but it's still the pressure that you would use to like...

Rachael Hutchins (06:41.48)
I'm sorry.

Rachael Hutchins (06:46.913)
So gentle.

Rachael Hutchins (06:52.259)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:06.094)
grab a tomato and test like the rightness of it. That's usually the reference that's given. It's very, very light. It's minimal force with the intention of restoring like proper alignment and promoting optimal nervous system function with that. So just some of, I guess, myth busting aspects in there.

Rachael Hutchins (07:09.278)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (07:15.808)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (07:33.374)
I guess when I was in school too, I never really thought about having to like pay malpractice so that never came into like my budgeting mindset and I'm like, oh, well I'm glad. I'm glad that it doesn't cost me that much.

Rachael Hutchins (07:40.162)
Right.

Rachael Hutchins (07:44.462)
Right, because there isn't really a lot of risk there and that's important to know. And we have these conversations too because we encourage chiropractic care for our clients and once their baby's here for both them and their baby. And it will be interesting. What I find sometimes interesting is when mom was under chiropractic care during pregnancy and she's fine going, but then feeling apprehension around taking her new baby because it's like, oh, they're so tiny. Like.

Dr. Shannon (07:47.442)
Uh huh.

Dr. Shannon (07:51.416)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (08:12.202)
you know, how is this going to work? And yeah, and sort of some, a lot of it's just like not really knowing. Um, so we try and shed light that about how gentle those initial adjustments are and how beneficial it is for breastfeeding, digestion, and restoring that balance, uh, to their nervous system. So like we try and paint that picture, but you can't, can't say it enough.

Dr. Shannon (08:12.962)
Mm-hmm. What's it gonna look like? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (08:30.917)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (08:35.999)
I know. Now, the next kind of thing is with the aspect of children not necessarily needing adjustments. A lot of times people think there's hypermobility, so they're already mobile. Do they really need it? And it's like, well, their spines aren't inherently hypermobile, but as they age and grow, there becomes that spinal flexibility but stability.

that goes with it. And so they have done some research on the forces used for adjustments varying from infants to teens and that the chiropractic adjustments are performed with greater force at higher rates of that force application as the patient's age increases. So again, this is finding someone who's trained in working with children and pediatric spines as well. But that.

Rachael Hutchins (09:18.98)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (09:27.254)
the duration of the thrust, so like the speed, I guess, of that remained consistent upon age groups. It's not like that changed, but it was just a little bit, like the force just changes there. But again, there's also different techniques that can be used. And so not every office is gonna do kind of a hands-on, manual adjusting. There's over 200 different adjusting techniques. Some are gonna be instrument out there as well too, which you get, you...

Rachael Hutchins (09:43.137)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (09:53.95)
you can get amazing results with that if the practitioner I feel like is trained and that's what they want to do. There's training with each of those adjustment types. So again, it's not like a superiority of adjustment type, but it's knowing that practitioner is trained in a certain thing and trained to work with the age of the spines that they are working with.

Rachael Hutchins (10:14.974)
Yeah. And I think I feel like saying that because kids have more mobility than seniors, for example, or people who are older than them means they don't need chiropractic care. It's like there are so many other things that could be going on for, you know, to help balancing the same thing balancing their nervous system, finding if they are tight. I mean, my youngest is consistently tight in his

Dr. Shannon (10:31.817)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (10:44.572)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (10:44.958)
sure he's like super strong and super athletic and resilient. And I feel like he's could just like bounce off the ground if he fell, but like he still has things that need to be balanced out in his, in his body. Um, and I'm like, why, why would I not want to do that? Just because he's youthful, like, you know, and then I, I remember Dr. Pam telling me, you know, her, her language around with kids, cause I'm like, you know, I feel like we get adjusted and we leave and then he,

Dr. Shannon (10:54.19)
There's still restrictions.

Dr. Shannon (11:04.071)
Mm-hmm

Rachael Hutchins (11:13.334)
Like my kid will go jump off like a wall and like, I'm like, oh, you just ruined that adjustment. And her phrasing or something like it was like, it's just, it helps them be more resilient to that fall, to that jump. So you know, you're not ruining the, it's actually prevent, you know, preventing disruption when they do what they do, which is they're constantly, they're so physical. All I can ever think is ow. And it doesn't, it doesn't affect them the same because they're not older, but it still protects them.

Dr. Shannon (11:15.969)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (11:23.852)
Uh huh.

Dr. Shannon (11:30.946)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (11:36.103)
Uh-huh. Oh, I know.

Rachael Hutchins (11:42.358)
Like there's still so much benefit to balancing the body and nervous system. And anyways, that's all.

Dr. Shannon (11:48.014)
Mm-hmm. And then again, too, I mean, I guess with this episode, it's like we've we talk a lot and other ones about the benefits of prenatal chiropractic and the benefits of pediatric and you know, there's all those other shows I know are those other episodes we have but Yeah, this is kind of coming out with well some of the hesitation of those myth-busting things So I like that you had mentioned as far I know as far as that Well, I mean they are so active and I have some people will you know I have a lot of athletes that come in and they're kind of like well when you know

Rachael Hutchins (11:55.726)
Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (12:05.77)
Right. Mm-hmm. No, children need adjustments. Ha ha.

Dr. Shannon (12:17.698)
Do you like to see the adjustments before or after an event or exercise or something? Well, kind of both, but if I had to pick, I would say before because I really want that optimal brain-body connection to occur before whatever that sporting event is. So then you have like optimal, you know, what's going on. And then after the little micro traumas or whatever from the event, then yeah, it's like, okay, we can kind of piece things back together. But yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (12:28.562)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (12:34.239)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (12:44.282)
Yeah, and knowing that kids are not getting adjusted, like you said, with the same force that an adult is. Like there's appropriate care for age group and I think this is again putting some advocacy on the person seeking the care of understanding who, like you have said, like it's really important, who is doing the care? Are they trained to work with young kids because they can't adjust everyone the same? And are they well prepared and trained to adjust the individual? So seeking that out.

Dr. Shannon (12:49.226)
Mm-hmm.

It's age dependent. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (13:12.656)
Right. And there comes in that collaboration and communication with the parents and the kids. That is it. Because I'm also looking at it, I need to get permission from the kid and for their body as well too. And I have some kids that prefer adjustments a certain way, and I always honor that for whatever age comes in the office.

Rachael Hutchins (13:16.82)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (13:25.356)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (13:33.496)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (13:36.774)
Every time they come in is different. Sometimes they'll have injuries where the care needs to be a little bit different one day than the other. Like it's the same thing with the adults as well too. But it's good collaboration and communication. And I want parents to feel comfortable to voice their cares and concerns. Because you never want, I mean, yes, I'm the doctor and I have this set of knowledge, but that doesn't mean that.

Rachael Hutchins (13:43.232)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (13:49.899)
Yes.

Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (14:02.618)
It's my way or the highway when it comes to certain things like if I could use other tools in my toolbox for people To feel comfortable with adjustments or explaining it to a degree in a level that they feel comfortable with it Then that's part of my responsibility, you know as well, too so

Rachael Hutchins (14:05.806)
Mm-mm.

Rachael Hutchins (14:15.85)
Yeah. So encouraging people to seek that type of provider who's going to offer information, provide individualized care, collaborate with you and or other professionals adjacent to you. So that's like, you know, you can overcome some of these fears or myths or misnomers by just being the parent, just like you would regardless of what the kind of care they're getting wherever you are.

Dr. Shannon (14:20.012)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (14:41.799)
Mm-hmm. Okay, so now moving into a realm of like myth busting for prenatal care is maybe the statement of chiropractic adjustments being too forceful for pregnant women. And again too, there's lots of ways to adjust. There's...

pregnancy specific chiropractic adjustments though and techniques like Webster that do prioritize safety and comfort for mom and baby. So again, it's looking at like, okay, are you going to a trained professional who has worked with a pregnant spine and a pregnant body and knows how to do that? And even within Webster, there are levels and ways of adjusting. So sometimes,

Rachael Hutchins (15:18.21)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (15:27.639)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (15:37.066)
With manual adjusting, sometimes people will do, have a pregnant mom on her side, it's called a sideline way to adjust pelvis and sacrum. Sometimes what I typically have is mama's on belly with special pillows and I have a table that has parts that pop up and drop down. So it's a Thompson technique, so it's a drop table. So I use that primarily with the pelvis and sacrum. But then I have the activator, which is a tool, which is a small handheld impulse too, lots of different levels to that.

Rachael Hutchins (16:04.066)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (16:06.806)
which I can change the force of the adjustment on the speed. The duration is the same every time, but I can change the force on the little knob, so I'll use that on children. I'll use it all the way up to my bigger spines. I can use that. And then there's even part of one aspect of Webster that can be done if we do have really intense like hypermobility in the spine, because there are, people are different. So there are gonna be more hypermobile spines than others, but this is when you go to a practitioner who knows what they're doing.

Rachael Hutchins (16:10.711)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (16:14.99)
Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (16:31.491)
Thank you.

Dr. Shannon (16:35.158)
there's an adjustment that can be done where I am just placing pressure on the pelvis and mom moves and shimmies hips and does the adjustment herself. So it's within a realm of not being so forceful. So it's knowing those as well too, knowing that the goal is to align pelvis sacrum to allow for optimal balance and function. But you can tailor this to pregnant mom's body and how you can see how they respond to. I have some people that respond way better.

Rachael Hutchins (16:42.294)
Hmm. You're not forcing it.

Dr. Shannon (17:04.45)
to a more what we call tonal as far as like the, using the activator, using something that's lighter touch. I have people that respond way better to that than maybe more of the drop or the manual adjusting. Everybody's different. Mm-hmm. I was just having those tools.

Rachael Hutchins (17:17.814)
Yeah, just everyone's different. Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (17:22.786)
And I usually, I like to ask for feedback from mom because I'm like, okay, did we feel any muscle soreness or aches and pains or what do we want? Or even if it's newly postpartum, I'm maybe not doing a lot of drops, I'm doing a lot more tonal technique and really balancing out craniosacral pump and all of that in a more peaceful, more calm manner with the nervous system. So

Rachael Hutchins (17:32.83)
Yeah.

Rachael Hutchins (17:43.046)
These are all great counterpoints to anyone that would say you shouldn't do chiropractic care because it's too forceful. Like the more you know, period.

Dr. Shannon (17:46.323)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (17:50.394)
Mm-hmm, exactly. So in line with that maybe adjustments being too forceful for pregnant women, there's the hypermobility, the myth of that it can make the chiropractic adjustments unsafe. And we know that there's relaxin in the, well, there's a relaxin in your body, but then in pregnancy it's really heightened to give

Rachael Hutchins (18:11.787)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (18:11.958)
that mobility to the joints where it's really needed as far as pelvis and sacrum. But I mean, it's needed everywhere because we've got that weight gain, we have that weight distribution change. We need the joints to be able to move differently and better with that as we incorporate the waddle and our gait changes and all of that. So, but we, as I guess the thing that some people don't realize, and I liked the wording in the article because it was talking about, chiropractors have specific training to work within those physiological training.

changes. So we have the training to work, you know, if you've taken the Webster Certificates in classes or working with pregnant spines, we have the training that's in there to make changes to how we adjust, you know, when necessary. Again, the different adjusting techniques that I went over, and the gentle and precise adjustments can address that joint discomfort without compromising joint stability as well.

Rachael Hutchins (18:42.529)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Rachael Hutchins (19:08.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's important to know.

Dr. Shannon (19:09.91)
So, yeah, so it's just kind of a little bit of extra information. I feel like these are mostly myths that I get from if someone is taking their child to or if they take their child to the pediatrician and they want to end up coming to the chiropractor, it's more from the medical community or medical side as far as these are their...

Rachael Hutchins (19:33.903)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (19:36.178)
issues with it and sometimes those issues that they have come from people posting videos of adjustments. I'm not a big fan of that. In the aspect of wanting to get a reaction out of people or you know those type of things. I have an adjustment that we're sharing on social media. I did an interview with Dr. Twyla and I

Rachael Hutchins (19:53.622)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (20:05.498)
newborn right after her home birth. But it's a beautiful video because it's an actual adjustment. It's not for like a wow factor. I feel like that's where. So sometimes I feel like the medical community can kind of, yeah, when you get in, I'm like, that's not, you know, not necessarily how things happen or what's really going on here.

Rachael Hutchins (20:15.722)
Right, it's different.

Rachael Hutchins (20:24.498)
That's that misunderstood, that misconception. It's using it in a way that's spreading fear versus understanding. And this happens with every aspect, I feel like, of life, of where the extreme points and they get the looks and they get the shocks and they get the likes. And then that is harder to overcome when you are trying to do what you're doing, which is overcome the myths and overcome the fear and overcome the misconception. So that's why you gotta keep spreading the good word.

Dr. Shannon (20:30.959)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (20:46.439)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Overcome that. Yeah, so I feel like exactly, that's what we're doing here. So that's what I feel like this is more geared toward and my I know, so I really do. And I really like my malpractice carrier because I use Kyra Futures because they're very prenatal pediatric.

They're very subluxation based, really looking at nervous system function. They put out a lot of research. They put out a lot of articles and they just have a lot of really good information. So I do like having, I know I do like really having them as my malpractice carrier. But to end with some of the benefits of care during pregnancy, like I said, we have a ton of episodes on this. I don't have anything in my mind of what I...

Rachael Hutchins (21:22.442)
awesome.

Dr. Shannon (21:40.318)
if I can recall quickly of like, oh, an episode that we've had, but, um, I know there's, there's always a big pain relief aspect in it. And then having people come and visit for low back pain, sciatica, pelvic pain, you know, round ligament, all of those, all those different pain points. In addition to alleviating those pain points, there's the enhancement of that overall wellbeing, um, by impacting spinal alignment and then positively impacting nervous system and how it functions. And then looking at.

in helping that brain body brain connection and then helping to adapt to the physiological changes. I think that's a big part where people will come in pain and it's like I'm trying to get them to that understanding of with care we're able to now adapt to our stressors. We're not we can't necessarily get rid of all the stressors in our life but can we adapt to them better and so that's where I'm coming at care.

Rachael Hutchins (22:31.678)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (22:37.502)
And that prenatal care where I try to get people to sometimes it takes a minute to like get out of that pain mode and get them into that wellness mode, but Yeah And I'll link they've got three different research articles that they had pulled from in fact some of them It's going to be the best practices For prenatal care best practices for pediatric care, which when I was in school, I was one of

Rachael Hutchins (22:45.202)
Yeah. What?

Rachael Hutchins (22:54.623)
Okay.

Rachael Hutchins (23:01.89)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shannon (23:07.198)
the folks that helped collect the data. So that was actually one of the things I did. So I helped collect the data for, yeah, so as part of those research papers, which is kind of fun, but it was collecting, because it's almost like a literature review. So collecting all the information that's been published in, that's already been published about it, gathering all of that. So then you can write a best practices chapter for a book as far as like evidence-based care. So that's where some of the stuff comes from. So yay. Yay.

Rachael Hutchins (23:10.67)
Hmm, you're a part of that.

Rachael Hutchins (23:16.255)
Nice.

Rachael Hutchins (23:34.078)
So awesome, Shannon. Can't wait to dive into those deeper. And I hope our listeners will dive into those deeper. And I know definitely there has been lots of things learned in this episode. Seeds planted, hopefully fears reduced, myths busted. Here we go. Go find yourself a Dr. Shannon, because you need one, we all need one.

Dr. Shannon (23:37.548)
Yeah.

Dr. Shannon (23:48.428)
Seeds planted, fears reduced.

Dr. Shannon (23:55.222)
Hahaha.

Rachael Hutchins (23:58.21)
And thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom. It's been so fun listening and learning with you today and listeners. We hope you'll tune in next week for a brand new episode.