Aligned Birth

Ep 103: Processing the Emotions of Pregnancy and Birth through Chiropractic Care, with Dr. Pamela Stone-McCoy, DC, DACCP

May 17, 2023 Dr. Shannon and Doula Rachael Episode 103
Aligned Birth
Ep 103: Processing the Emotions of Pregnancy and Birth through Chiropractic Care, with Dr. Pamela Stone-McCoy, DC, DACCP
Aligned Birth Listener Support
Help us continue doing this important and impactful work.
Starting at $3/month
Show Notes Transcript

How we give birth matters, but also important, and maybe more importantly, how we FEEL about our birth matters.  Today’s episode is all about the emotions surrounding birth, specifically fear, stress, and a lack of trust in our body’s ability to give birth.  Dr. Pamela Stone-McCoy joins the show today, and she is a prenatal and pediatric chiropractic in the Metro-Atlanta area, and she is the Webster Certification instructor for the International Chiropractic Pediatric Association ( and happens to be Dr. Shannon’s mentor!!!)  This interview dives deep into the neurological component of fear and emotions surrounding birth and how chiropractic care impacts how our body processes those emotions.  They discuss many topics including:

  • What is dystocia and the 3 main causes of it?
  • Dr. Pam’s 23 years of experience in prenatal chiropractic care
  • How fear impacts birth and the different types of fear
  • How fear impacts the nervous system
  • How chiropractic care can impact the nervous system - beyond alleviating aches and pains
  • Ways to support moms to help combat fear during pregnancy and birth 

Resources mentioned in the show
Prenatal stress changes brain connectivity in utero
How to make stress your friend
Episode 1 - meet your hosts
Episode 2 - full circle
Connect with Pam at Active Life Chiropractic - website - instagram - facebook 

Support the show

Want to show your support? Want to help us continue doing this important and impactful work: Support the Show (we greatly appreciate it!)

Don't miss new episodes: Join the Aligned Birth Community

Instagram: Aligned Birth


Find us online:
Sunrise Chiropractic and Wellness
North Atlanta Birth Services

Editing: Godfrey Sound
Music: "Freedom” by Roa

Disclaimer: The information shared, obtained, and discussed in this podcast is not intended as medical advice and should not be relied upon as a substitute for professional consultation with a qualified healthcare provider familiar with your individual medical needs. By listening to this podcast you agree not to use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or others. Consult your own physician for any medical issues that you may be having. This disclaimer includes all guests or contributors to the podcast.

Unknown Speaker  0:03  

Hello friends, you are listening to the aligned birth podcast. I am Dr. Shannon. I'm one of the host of the show. And today is interview day. And so we've got Dr. Pamela stone on the show today. She's a local North metro Atlanta area chiropractor. And we're going to talk about emotions and birth. And that's a very simplified, I guess blurb about what we're going to talk about today because we have lots of good notes that we have that we're going to share because our emotions play a big part in the birth process. And so and even that prenatal aspect of the pregnancy as well so not just birth as well, but kind of how we deal with our emotions and deal with our feelings and especially dealing with fear during our pregnancy. So we're going to talk you know, Rachel and I have done a lot of shows on this, but we haven't necessarily defined it specifically. And so if you haven't heard the word dystocia, that's what we're going to talk about today. Dr. Kramm is going to come in and kind of give us okay, what are the three definitions or the three different types of distortions and that's because we've mentioned it before, but now we really want to put a definition to it. We're gonna go over Webster technique as well and prenatal chiropractic care how fear impacts birth, how fear impacts our nervous systems, and how chiropractic care can impact our nervous system as well. So that's kind of some of the highlights that we're going to talk about today. I want to do a little reminder that we do have some fun ways that you can help support the show with monetary donation so you can do as little or as much as you want, and they've got a link there in the show notes as well. So you can help support us to do wonderful interviews like we're doing here and continue doing the show. And then we also are going to have a newsletter coming out. And if you want to stay in the know on upcoming things that we have in new projects that we have, you can sign up for that and we'll just send you very rarely send you emails about what's coming up on the show and ways to stay in touch with us. So again, we have Dr. Pam on the show today. She like I said is a chiropractor owns a family wellness salutogenic based chiropractic practice in Kennesaw, Georgia, so that North metro Atlanta area, she has been certified in the Webster technique since 1999. And we'll talk a little bit more about what she does with Webster. Now she's been an avid icpa members since she was a student at life and she just celebrated 23 years of being a chiropractor. Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. And she's a diplomat and pediatric and prenatal care through the academy Council of chiropractic pediatrics, past president of Georgia birth network board member of the Academy of chiropractic family practice and member of the American pregnancy Association, holistic Pediatric Association and the Atlanta chapter of the International Susteren awareness network and as a peer reviewer for chiropractic research journals, I wanted to say all those things because it sounds like it's freaking awesome. It's freaking awesome and it is worth mentioning to show her dedication and love and commitment to the birthing community. She's been published numerous times in lots of chiropractic based research journals, she hosts pathways connects meeting she's constantly getting moms together and helping them form their birth support team and just really helping our birthing community and she's also the instructor for the Webster certification course that chiropractors take through the International chiropractic Pediatric Association. So she is teaching the new and up and coming and some older chiropractors, the Webster technique which is what we talk about so much on the show.

Unknown Speaker  3:39  

Hello, and welcome to the alive birth podcast. We are so glad you're here. I'm Dr. Shannon, a prenatal chiropractor.

Unknown Speaker  3:46  

And I'm Rachel a birth doula and childbirth educator and we are the team behind the Align for podcast

Unknown Speaker  3:53  

between us we have experienced necessary in Birth of VBAC, hospital births and a home birth. Our personal experiences led us to where we are today we share a lot in common.

Unknown Speaker  4:03  

We are friends from high school who reconnected through our work. We both changed career paths after the birth of our own children. We light up when talking about health and birth, and we are both moms to two young boys.

Unknown Speaker  4:15  

This podcast was created to share conversations and interviews about topics from pregnancy and birth to motherhood and the importance of a healthy body and mind through it all. Our goal is to bring you fun, interesting and helpful conversations that excite you and make you want to learn more.

Unknown Speaker  4:30  

We believe that when you are aligned and body, mind and your intuition, you can conquer anything. We hope you enjoy the episode

Unknown Speaker  4:49  

so I am so excited to have you on the show today. Dr. Pam. Thank you. I'm

Unknown Speaker  4:53  

so excited to be here. I mean, I consider you you're a very dear friend of mine, and I've known Rachel for a very long time too. So it's like oh my gosh, I'm here.

Unknown Speaker  5:01  

I was gonna thank you. People need to listen to the first like two episodes we did on the show because you were a part of mine and Rachel's like versus support team. So I know if you've listened to any episodes of the show, you've heard us talk about that we we almost went to you in every episodes we've talked about Dr. Pan, Dr. Graham and so this would be Dr. Pam. So I know. So yeah, we're getting know each other pretty well. And I love that. And we'll get into maybe a little bit about that when we come into some of what we want to talk about. Because I think you know, I know chiropractic care, I think helped a ton with my emotions surrounding birth. And so we can definitely dive into that. But I kind of want to start with and I'm so glad when we were chatting before the show and coming up with our outline because we never really defined like what is dystocia and so this is something you teach in the Webster certification courses. So don't worry people listening this is not going to be like a train we're talking to not chiropractors. We're talking to you know, regular folks, but I want to go into what dystocia is.

Unknown Speaker  6:11  

Yeah, so dystocia is in some simple words is difficult birth is and I could read The medical definition but that's maybe too crazy. Since mostly lay people moms pregnant women are listening to this but it's basically difficult birth by either a large baby baby in a bad position. Mother's pelvis is too small. I'm putting air quotes out there mom's pelvis is too small or when the uterus or cervix stopped working like that failure to progress the baby just stops descending, contraction stuff happening, all of that is defined as associate like something difficult is going on that's leading to a difficult longer birth. And I look I mean by that definition, I'm like, oh, chiropractic care can help. Things. That's what that's what dystocia really is in the medical in the OB world in the midwifery world is difficult birth. It's not just this beautiful, perfect fast EV easy birth. So any mom who's gone through any kind of birth challenges that is essentially the definition of dissociates difficult birth and failure to progress things not working is the number one reason for C section in our country. And so that's what you and I and you know, chiropractor, everyone's working to decrease that from happening. So I wanted to talk more of the emotional part because I know you are so good at talking about the chiropractic part and Rachel adds her as in as being a childbirth educator and doula in that component as well. So there's no component

Unknown Speaker  7:29  

there. Okay, so we've kind of defined dystocia and then you can even have like Shoulder Dystocia. Like there's different even more specific aspects of that raise that sometimes that happens in birth as well. Not all the time. But so if some if some people have, you know, heard the word before, that might have been where they hear it, but so are within dystocia what are some of the different types that you can have today you're talking to so we're going to talk about the emotional aspect today too. But what are some of the other types of dystocia? So we've always

Unknown Speaker  8:02  

categorized into three different categories. One is like the biomechanical, neuro biomechanical so what is going on like it from a pelvic percent is the hand up by the head as they're coming out is the shoulder getting stuck is their pelvic floor out of alignment is their nerve irritation that's, you know, find mechanically or Nura neurologically causing that difficult birth and that happens a lot. That's what we as chiropractors are focusing on especially you, then another part of it is going to be the OB call is I ever genic or technocratic like the hospital induced dystocia. And it's not always intentional, but it's that cascade of interventions that happen somebody wants a natural birth, and they go in and they get ended. up getting induced and that leads to crazy contractions, and then they end up getting an epidural, which they don't want and it ends up a lot of times that begin with tearing or episiotomy, which a little c section so all these different things that cause that difficult birth. That is, you know, things that happen in a cascade of an intervention and then the other one that we categorize is the emotional component. And that's what we say is the fear. So that is that's really what I want to talk about because I think people really overlook that. You know, I mean, people are we overlook all three of them. But if you're wanting that natural birth, and you're getting adjusted and you're taking your childbirth education class and then something goes bad, a lot or when I say bad, maybe not the way they planned. A lot of times I think it's because of a little bit of fear, you know, fear of something that's subconsciously in their mind that slowing things down, and that's really, really difficult. So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about is like, how, how can people help people get over that fear? So that's the summary. That's the

Unknown Speaker  9:41  

summary. No, and that's why I wanted to define those things because like what you said, I do think it really does get looked over, you know, at least the emotional aspect of it. And so, so what do you see in what do you see in the office with the moms that you work with are over time what you've seen with fear and moms with birth or ways that they've surrounded themselves like you know, give us some insight into that.

Unknown Speaker  10:14  

So one of the things I always ask moms in our office is like, what is your biggest fear going into this birth because I can certainly adjust them and prepare their pelvis and sacrum, as much as biomechanically possible, making sure everything's going well, but if they're afraid, fear is the number one thing so they have a fear of either the pain like I don't know if I can do this. They have the fear of like, oh my gosh, what if I have to be rushed into a C section? It's the fear of what if the baby has to be pulled out by forceps or vacuum extraction or the fear of what if I can't have that VBAC? that I want and then even within the past couple years, like what if the baby's taken away from me because I tested positive for COVID or, you know, all these different fears

Unknown Speaker  10:56  

for that person around you can't have your Yeah, so when doulas weren't allowed

Unknown Speaker  10:59  

they weren't one person at all. I mean, that you know, VBAC significantly decreased their studies so vivax significantly decreased and C section significantly increased, almost doubled in the pandemic area bearer, which technically we're celebrating, but because they didn't have that support person, so fear to me is probably the number one thing and it's a subconscious fear. Like you can be like I want a great birth but if deep down inside you're like Oh god this is gonna hurt, then that comes out. Then there's the loss of control. I mean, that's it. You've got no control, like lately, I mean, type a control person if you want to know when the you know, you can't plan that. I mean, you can if you're planning an induction or C section, but if you're going to try for that natural birth you can't you have no control, you have no control over a lot of things and that's a really really hard thing. The other thing I see is not trusting their body and not trusting themselves and trusting their doctor more or just being like Oh, I got stuck with a bad the doctor they didn't want or whatever. So that trust factor or lack of trust is huge also. And then the last one or not last one, but the other big big one is stress is a mom's emotional stress during pregnancy absolutely can affect the baby and can affect the birth process. So I think those that whole category, those four things, really just summarizing motional but that that can affect somebody and I think a lot of people don't really look at those factors. They may take a childbirth education class, they may take have a doula they may be getting adjusted all these different things to make their situation good, but they skip the emotional component. And just recently I had a friend who was she was a perfect I mean, he didn't say perfect situation, but she was really focused on her due date. And you know, because maybe due date and then you know, five days go by and the baby's not born and emotionally she was planning a home birth and then she's like, Okay, I'm getting off of social media because everybody's asking me I'm not paying, you know, so like the stress was getting to her because she was late. And that kind of stuff impacts people. I mean, I know you guys have talked about due dates before, but that stress that we're under, whether it's from working spouses, relationships, anything that affects the baby so that's that's a lot of that's all a lot. I

Unknown Speaker  13:14  

know. Well, I'm glad, but that's important for you to mention that you asked him that question office because I wanted to reiterate to that, like all of the birth support professionals that someone has on their team can impact how their nervous system is functioning, though, on that emotional level, you know, so it's not just I tried to tell people so many people are like, sometimes I feel like this is like a therapy appointment or a counseling appointment. Sometimes I care and I'm like, well, first of all, we know I'm not trained in that. I know when I need to refer but it really is and I think sometimes people don't realize that that can help alleviate, you know, going rate those types of professionals even like pelvic floor PT, like all these things are going to come out in these appointments that you're going to it's going to come out with your doula to really assess okay, what are you afraid of and what is the fear and so I think that's important that you mentioned that with Yeah, this is how you treat prenatal patients. This is Henry, this is what you ask them and this is what yeah, what you help with.

Unknown Speaker  14:14  

Because if they come in and they say, Oh, my fear is not being able to help or my fear is a C section that I'm really educating them and working them on. Okay, this is going to take a childbirth education. So this is really why you should have a doula and this is why we're adjusting you we're adjusting you to create that balance so you have a less likely of a chance to have a C section so but sometimes they're just people will say they're afraid of the pain. They're afraid of the unknown and you know, I can refer them out for them with those things, but it's addressing their you know, in between their ears more than anything and that's with I mean, there's a lot of different ways we do that in the office, but I was gonna

Unknown Speaker  14:47  

say so what are some of the things that when you hear that from from moms, it's like, okay, now

Unknown Speaker  14:54  

I feel like I can really address their fears anyway, because it's either just talking about how the adjustment is going to help decrease the chance of that fear happening, whether it's tearing, or C section or VBAC or encourage them to hire a doula or encouraging them to have a take a childbirth education class, but also if they're a fear, afraid of the pain and it's like well, maybe you need to do Hypno birthing or maybe you need to do moving around. But then from a chiropractic perspective, it's cranial work, it's doing a lot of you know, people always see your cranial sacral therapist and like, well, chiropractors can do cranial work. So it's adjusting. In a sense their brain is adjusting the cranial bones. It's bringing them out of that state of stress from a neurological perspective and into a state of peace. I always say people can't give birth, if they're running from a tiger if they're in that, you know that we have the parasympathetic and the sympathetic that fight or flight. They can't give birth if they are in that sympathetic fight or flight stage all the time. So you know, I can tell him I'll go home and deep breathing and take belly you know, all this stuff, but it's like we got to neurologically work with that parasympathetic, getting them coming down, do cranial work, focusing on belly breath. I mean, you've probably seen it before you told somebody to take a deep breath and they're like,

Unknown Speaker  16:04  

all up in the chest. You're like, no, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  16:07  

Yeah. So it's it's from a you know, body perspective. It's the deep breathing, it's cranial work, it's focusing on logon, perfect logon adjustments, different things to in a sense, decrease their sympathetic tone and increase their parasympathetics and that's what we're doing, you know, pro chiropractic refers to is adjusting that and getting that out and trying to work with them, structurally, neurologically, calming them down and not adjusting every area you know, I don't like to adjust the mid back on someone late in pregnancy because that just sends him into sympathetic overdrive and I think most chiropractors who are trained in Webster know you know, do that or you know, follow that same concept of just getting them into that state of peace and getting them into a state of calm through adjustments through deep breathing through Hypno, birthing Hypno babies and stuff like that. So that's just one thing physically as chiropractors that we can do.

Unknown Speaker  17:03  

Well, and that's a little bit too of that like education component as well as mentioning stuff to people that they may not have heard or considered, you know, before and letting just kind of like sit with sit with the year that sometimes you sit with it, but then how can you cross it, but I think it's neat because now, when you when you look at how you describe chiropractic care, and all the impacts, because I like sometimes to to really hit home that it is so much more than you know, just treating aches and pains, you know, there's that other aspect of it. It's kind of like that chiropractic adjustment can really impact those three main types of decision or those three main things that lead to dystocia because yes, you're looking at that biomechanical pelvis, sacral alignment, but when we address that, that impacts nervous system function and everything related to that. So that's that kind of emotional component and then if we can impact that then that can infect, you know, impact, maybe that cascade of events and not eating it. So yeah.

Unknown Speaker  18:06  

And I just, I mean, you just love being able to adjust somebody and then get off the table and be like, Oh, my God, I can I can breathe better. I feel so much more relaxed. They're not really getting off the table saying I'm in less pain because a lot of times they're not coming because they're in pain, but they're getting off the field and just that emotional component and feeling better about themselves, typically allows that better, that better overall experience and that's what adjustments are going to do is just focusing on cranial work focusing on Upper Cervical Atlas adjustment, little sacral work and just that area and getting them relaxed, because if they're relaxed, leaving your office, they know typically they know that state that they're supposed to be in ideally, I mean, it doesn't always happen, especially if they go home and they are in a stressful environment, whether it's stress from work or stress from partners or anything like that. So that can be that can impact

Unknown Speaker  18:55  

your hopes to yeah the hopes to that you can keep you know work on those adaptability reserves and that kind of train the nervous system a little bit now you can even set because I like to always say that you can't like heal, your body can't heal if it thinks that it's running from a bear. But I like that you said to well also, you know, you're not going to give birth. If you look at mammals, you know, out in the wild like they're gonna go to like that quiet place to where they don't feel stress. And so sometimes bright light hospital chemical smells is the exact opposite of a calming environment. But I liked that you mentioned that those components of how fear impacts the nervous system, you know,

Unknown Speaker  19:38  

well, it doesn't I love the brunt of the animals because obviously I love animals but it's you know if you ever want me there's so many I don't know what are we shows up in my Facebook feed maybe because I'm an animal crazy person but I always see animal births on my Facebook feed Page or my Instagram it pops up and it's like these animals go off all by themselves, give birth, typically they're laying on their side or they're standing and they don't come anyone helping them and you're right. They go off in the middle of the night. They're they're all alone. They are in a state of peace for the most part, giving birth. Yeah. As humans, we It has become a very medicalized procedure where it is the bright lights and that stresses people out, you know, so that's why, if they can get into a hospital environment or homebirth of birth center where it's a little bit more peaceful in you know, music's playing and the lights are dim and it gets them into a more peaceful environment. They're going to be better off emotionally but a lot of people who will can't do that don't want to hospitals may not provide it but the most they can prepare their mind as good as possible. the better off they're going to be. You know, I'm always telling them, Hey, come in and get adjusted on your way to the hospital or while you're in labor. Or, you know, whatever in between, you know, come in because that adjustment is going to help, you know, bring up that parasympathetic tone and decrease that sympathetic because if they're super stressed out, then it makes the process that much harder. And that really stinks. So many people are stressed out these days. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  20:59  

and that was what you had mentioned earlier. You know, you ask the moms a question is okay, what is the biggest you know, fear that you have when the birth and you know, stress was one of those

Unknown Speaker  21:10  

stresses? Yeah, right. And, and that's where we are. I mean, people have been stressed more so the past couple of years than ever before. Really because of just everything that's happened with COVID. And it's like, if they get into that fear, they get into that vicious cycle, you know, kind of like draw a circle here. It's like, where they have that fear and that fear causes tension and that tension causes pain and pain causes more excuse me, pension, causes more pain, which causes more fear so it's like they get in that vicious cycle all around versus in that relaxed cycle where the oxytocin is released, and they're acknowledging things. And they're in that state of calm and trust and it kind of that that good cycle. So it's like if we can somehow break the fear cycle and help bringing them to that trust cycle. That's a big thing is getting them to trust their body, getting them to trust themselves, their providers, you know, probably trusting themselves more than anything. I mean, a baby's know, when the due dates gonna be I'm always like, the only one who knows the due date is a baby, right? And mom just has to try to trust that emotionally, physically. You know everything as much as possible and really trust their body. And so, you know, we can't do everything at our visits, but if we can, if anything, encourage them to trust the body and get out of that state of stress. That's that's really huge because the fear slows things down. So significantly, and then

Unknown Speaker  22:25  

Rachel has talked about this before to that fear, pain, that pain tension cycle, but I love that you mentioned acknowledging, you know, fear can impact that cycle and impacting negatively but if you can flip the script a little bit on that and really switch it to like, okay, these contractions are painful. This pain is here. It has a purpose. You know, the one even Rachel talks about the role of pain and hormones during birth, because there's a point and a purpose to and even maybe even just flipping the script as far as like, you know, maybe instead of pain or it's like waves and the contract, just how you the words that you use to really impact right I don't know

Unknown Speaker  23:04  

because it pain is a cortisol increases in cortisol is that stress hormone, it's like that you want oxytocin going, do you know it's the birth it's the home run the birth itself? I'm gonna make you money. I mean, that's what you want in the birth process, which is real conviction, which is trust, which is, you know, acknowledgement, but it's easier said than done like they do. That in birth. They have to prepare.

Unknown Speaker  23:26  

You have different pair. It's not not something Yeah, that you're like, Oh, I think I'm just gonna switch into oxytocin mode. You know, I think so you and I have a fun history because I had and I've shared this multiple times in the show, so I won't go in depth to go listen to episodes one and two, because that's where Rachel share her story. But I did and I think I had a lot of fear in my first birth. And I think I thought it was just going like, Oh, I'm really strong. I'm really capable. Like I think just innate instincts are going to kick in and I took a hospital childbirth education class, and you know, like, I thought I was doing all the things and again, too, you don't know what you don't know. So I don't beat myself up about it, but I look back on it and like okay, that I used what I I use that first birth to prepare for the second birth but again, I feel like I had so much fear in that mine was a lot of that fear of the unknown and that lack of control, but I felt like, Oh, I think I'll just, I run a lot. I can handle pain. I can do these type of things. I remember getting there and I was like, this is totally not what I had expected. And so I ended up with more of that cascade of interventions. And I do I look back on that. And it wasn't, I didn't I don't know if I really had a lot of beer that started like prenatally. I mean, granted, I was you know, passed my estimated due date. So that also that just gets in your head because we're so focused on that in the medical world, I feel like which is good and bad. Because we need to know an estimate of what babies do but also that fitness on that can really you because then you feel like your body's failing. So when you go into that and then you feel like your body's already failing and then you try to go into birth, and it's like, well, I already felt the first part because baby didn't come when it was supposed to. Like, you know, and not I'm saying that any of these, you know, thoughts that I had or accurate or anything but it was like this is this is the thought process and this is like what can you do to combat that during during birth? And it's like, you've got to, it's almost like you need like preparing prenatally as well. And that's where I think some of what we talk about comes into play as far as like okay then God that you ask those questions like, can we address this stuff now instead of getting to the birth and be like, Oh my gosh, right. It's not going according to plan and do I have any coping mechanisms or coping techniques? or anything?

Unknown Speaker  25:56  

I don't Well, that's where that's where, like a doula will, you know, I don't have I don't spend an hour with my patients every visit you know, so there's only so much time you can do but if you can encourage them to connect with people who they're connected to, they're going to typically have a better experience and like you just did this 40 mile race you would never have gone well, I don't think into this race being unprepared. You know, you totally prepared your body for it. And you just did a podcast on that. You know, it's like, you need to prepare your body and your mind for birth just like you are for 14 running race in the woods. You know, it's so people I think, just don't do that. So,

Unknown Speaker  26:29  

and I think that's where so that's kind of what I'm trying to say to like, I knew how to prepare for the races, but maybe I guess I just didn't know all the outlets or ways to prepare for birth. Right You know, and so, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  26:42  

And that's a big part of that is because, you know, we don't know the first time you know, there's so many people, they have that first experience and the second experience is different because they learned I mean, we all learn from our experiences we all learn from I don't wanna say mistakes, not that it's a mistake, but it's like we all learn and we do things differently for the most part, the second time around. So, you know, as providers, we it's like, we want to just help them have the experience that they want because some people want this. The epidural, some people, you know, they don't care. So it's like meeting where they're there and supporting them as much as possible. Physically, you know, emotionally as well will impact them because if they're in that sympathetic stress that just leads to that cascade of interventions. You know, we always I don't know, I don't want to get into the polyvagal theory, but that's like a whole other aspect of the nervous system is having people feel safe. You know, I say there's like, you could be that turtle that just locks up and goes into lockdown mode. And that you can't really give birth. In that phase. You can't give birth running from a tiger but you have to be in that what's called the ventral vagal, which is that safety, that space where you're supported emotionally through your partners or doula, whoever it may be there to support you emotionally and some people don't have that. I mean, I had a woman just come into the office yesterday and she's pregnant. I'm like, Yay, she's like, yes, okay. You're not happy about this and then happens and we can't always assume that someone's pregnant is a good thing because sometimes they don't want it and that they have that support at home. Maybe their partner is not there. Maybe it's you know, whatever. So as much as we can do emotionally to support them through that process, recognizing them providing outlets, I think is huge. And that's where, you know, we've got those groups. We have moms groups in our office, which is a huge connection. And I think for moms, we say that we have one

Unknown Speaker  0:00  

A month but it's like moms come in and sometimes we have three moms or sometimes we have 10 Moms but it's like that emotional connection to connect with other moms because they don't have that a lot and I know you provide that support as well but if we can provide that emotional support so they can chat with other moms and share their experiences whether it's a C section through I can international scenario where this network or other

Unknown Speaker  0:28  

really important aspect because sometimes they don't have it. They told me they go to these Facebook groups and they find moms but it's not like the moms they want or anything so right right now it's hard that it is I mean, yeah, and that but that's, I think that's one really cool thing when you look at when you branch out into creating that birth support team and so I know you know, with my first birth going a certain way second time I was like well, I really don't want to go through that again.

Unknown Speaker  1:02  

And I always tell people like I laid it waited a little way too little late to the game when coming to see you but it came for you. Okay, I came for prenatal chiropractic cares. 36 weeks pregnant. And I remember like, okay, wanting this feedback and to not think about I'm like, and you know what it was I was like, how did I know about a VBAC? And it was my provider and they I remember right after I had ease, and they're like, oh, you're a perfect candidate for feedback. And I was like, I don't want to talk about having another baby right now. I just think experience I'll never forget that but I had a really good practice at a very heavy Syrian hospital. Yeah, I remember coming into that with you too. And I remember I just I think I remember you being like, okay, okay, we can do this. I'm gonna need you to do this. Okay, I'm here for it. But I think what that did so yes, outside of chiropractic care. Yes, I know that chiropractic care impacted my nervous system function impacted how my pelvis and sacrum balance because I had horrible hip pain like all of those amazing things. I know it did. That. But I also think it opened me up to like the referral network that you have and the resources that you have. And I know Rachel, I've talked about that a lot as far as like, sometimes when you go to those providers, and you find that you're like, Oh, now I know these words. Now I know to look for this now. So that's another aspect of creating that support group. And team, you know, that just having that community of people that you can refer out to like, and that just comes with experience of just getting out there, you know, meeting people in authority, so the GA birth network in the past has been really good because it's like that's the physically meet up with people and you meet your doulas and you meet the childbirth educators and you have that because you I can't I can't be everything. I'm not a childbirth education.

Unknown Speaker  2:51  

Educator, I'm not a not a doula. I'm not a hypno birthing any of that stuff, but it's like I know people that I can refer to and that just comes right in and just having that and even the postpartum depression counselors, because that's a sick really significant thing. And I think we people tend to overlook that as well as, you know, you have a baby and you're happy and it's like, not always I mean, there's stressful things going on. And so just having, whether it's other moms they can connect with or depending on the severity of it or or postpartum depression counselors. I mean, there's a lot there's plenty out there. But having that network and you know, of people you can refer out to is I think is is important, because it's not a one stop shop for everybody, you know, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And everybody needs. Yeah, everybody needs different things, you know, and different they create that support team in a different way.

Unknown Speaker  3:37  

They have different expectations and hopes. I mean, some people you know, don't care if they have a C section. Some people don't care if they have enough, you know, and then that's okay. It's like just meeting where they're at. But if you can adjust them and just allow their, their nervous system to feel better, they're more likely to have a better experience, whatever that experience is, whatever whatever it is that they they want in their studies. We kind of talked about this earlier about the studies that show and I'll send it to you with that. A mom stress during pregnancy it impacts the nervous system, the baby so if she's going through stress while she's pregnant, those hormones everything will absolutely affect the baby because sometimes I had moms come in after giving birth and they had you know, beautiful birth, no medication, no stress, fast birth relatively good. And the baby's in high sympathetic, the baby screaming the baby's crying and they're like what's wrong? And sometimes it's because of the stress of the mom and that really stinks because you can't do like, can't be like, Oh, it's because you're stressed. You know, they mean? Like, that's where it's like, if we can address them before they get to that stage, then it's gonna be better for the baby. So, because I was just about to ask you how fear impacts the nervous system you taught we talked a little bit on that already, as far as getting that gut that sympathetic fight or flight kind of drive and trying to get moms out of that and into more of that calming, you know, aspect of the nervous system which that can be difficult for you because then when you you know, sometimes you hear that when I did an interview with Dr. Martin Rosen and we were talking about, we talked a little bit about like birth, stress and birth, trauma and impact because we were talking a lot about like pediatric cranial work.

Unknown Speaker  5:21  

It's never there's never want to put like shame and blame and guilt on the mom like, well, you're stressed and you're stressing out your baby, but I do also say that stressed out parents really stressed out kids and if you've got a stressed out household and it's like contagious in an academic thing, so you know, it's an energetically contagious emotion or feeling and so I'm glad that you mentioned that fear can and that stress can impact the newborn and I you know, I think so like I said with my first I had a lot of fear in that birth in that it was very you know, we were in the hospital for five days. Like it was just I look now at that kid who is 13 Oh my god, they're doing I mean, we've known each other.

Unknown Speaker  6:09  

Oh, my god. Um, but I see certain things in him that are different than my youngest. And sometimes I do kind of relate that to the birth process because I was able to have that feedback. And I like I said, I do think you know, chiropractic care played a huge part in that. But I see those differences in them, you know, not even health wise as far as the difference between a cesarean birth and a vaginal birth. Why you know, we always talk about the yes, there are different you know, health implications for baby with those bursary, but looking at how I do feel that my fear and stress in that birth and postpartum with my first did get translated a little bit into how he processes his world. So, again, not to put a lot of pressure on moms is on you to you know, creating resilient kids, but it's understanding it, it's kind of saying, okay, what can I do to like, I've had to do a lot of work on me in order to help him you know, right and so I think character I know women that we always feel guilty I look at my kid, we go the things I screwed up with him when he was a little kid, you know, but that's everybody goes through that. So that's just like, oh, we can do it the best we can do. But if Yeah, if mom is I mean, I think my my part of my job is just want to help them recognize their stresses decrease or stresses, whether it's through support groups, you know, our groups that we have in our office, the cranial work adjustments, getting about an exercising, I think, people and you know, you and I are big exercise, but people under value that they don't realize that just going for that 30 minute walk at the end of the day can decrease their stress, because if they're really stressed out there, baby's gonna feel it. And you and I and everybody else, we're in the world and we have TVs and newspapers and social media to tell us all of the things that are going on in the world. And all of these different things that are stressing us out and the baby in utero only has mom like they're not hearing they're hearing everything mom is hearing but they don't have all these other outside influences. So the baby is just completely fueling their nervous system and their life over mom's emotions. So and that's hard when moms are stressed out these days, but you know, if we can just emotionally make them, you know, the deep belly breaths. They're walking the adjustments just to decrease their stress. Knowing that you're never going to have a perfect shot like very, very rarely, I would say just a perfect, perfect perfect child happened. You know, because there's always challenges people have whether they're stressed out or during birth, or they end up having that seed section or they have the medicated birth or infertility or whatever it is stresses them out and that's okay. We just you know, the perfect situation never happens. So we just have to learn how to adapt to those stressful situations when they happen and do the best. Do the best we can absolutely do as parents and as providers really so.

Unknown Speaker  8:54  

That you know, we love that in the chiropractic world. So it's but that's, that's what I always look at too. And I have some moms who they're feeling good, like they come in for, you know, wellness care, like they don't have a lot of aches and pains or something like that. But then we talk about they're like, I just want to bring some more like calm and ease to the nervous system. And that's what we talked about, and it's like, building up those adaptability reserves. And being able to, I used to say to deal with the stressors that come because they're gonna come, there's gonna be stressors and there's a good amount of stress, you need that stress. You know, for muscles to grow. You need those types of stressors. It's just when you get to that chronic aspect where it's like, right, this is now a problem. Yeah, and it's the chronic stress that just it just cycles over and over again. And you know, we all go through those periods of where it's whether it's weeks or days or months or whatever, where things are crazy, but if we're viewing that stress is harmful, then it tend to be harmful versus viewing that stress as like okay, this is just something I got to deal with. And hopefully recognizing that and bouncing out of it knowing that something else is gonna happen. Okay, stress is in adapting to it and in you know, overcoming that as much as possible. And so, you know, when people come in with those stressful situations, you just try to talk to them like, okay, you know, let's get through this because something else will happen but if you're viewing it as something that's going to be detrimental, that it probably will be detrimental versus viewing it as something that your body just adapts to and that's where I love that polyvagal theory. It's kind of like, I don't want to get too techie here, but you know, bringing that person out of that crazy stressful mode, whether it's through the adjustments through communication through exercise deep breathing, essential oils, whatever it is to say, Okay, let's get into this peaceful mode as much as you possibly can. Recognizing it is probably the first thing to do so. And sometimes it's a process sometimes it's all those things, right, you know, right. And sometimes we don't do it and we're like, Oh, crap.

Unknown Speaker  10:46  

I'm so stressed. Oh, yeah. I haven't you know, that exercise or anything or even though my deep breathing like, you know, I mean, all this. Yeah, we all go through those periods. So, that's, it's kind of nice to be like, okay, yeah, we're human too. We all have those down moments, but if we can recognize it, and if other encourage other people to recognize it to get themselves out of it, then then they're more likely to have a less stressful experience and it's going to not going to be that chronic stress where that cortisol is going crazy. You're going to adapt to it better. When you win as parents you adapt to those stressors better. I think that shows, kiddos babies and it gets passed on to Okay, these are the ways that you can these are the tips and tricks and things that you can do to adapt to stressors. Yeah. Yeah, there's a I'll send you the video. It's a like a 20 minute TED Talk where this Kelly McGonigal did his talk about how people adapt to stress and how it affects the nervous system. And you know, if they're viewing stress as something that's just going to kill me or set me down then chances are it will I mean, they looked at people over I think 10 years and the people who viewed stress as really bad, tend to die earlier than pieces. People who viewed stress as just like awesome, you know, whatever. It's something I'm going through, I'll get over it.

Unknown Speaker  11:53  

And if people more people knew that or really understand it, maybe we would be able to deal with our stresses better versus like okay, this is a horrible you know, life changing thing. So, that's kind of a diversion, but I know we're still talking about fear.

Unknown Speaker  12:07  

It's still about birth. Now, I do want to mention one little thing because an eye shows we've mentioned with Webster technique and the bone muscle ligaments that are involved in it and what we work on on the patient's on the posterior side, we work on the anterior side. I usually tell people like we worked on one of my favorite muscles because it's the psoas muscle but I used to say it's it's my favorite because like why did you hear I'm like well it because it holds the most like emotion in the body and like I don't know why that's my favorite. I just think that's really cool. I've mentioned before on the show to the Body Keeps the Score which is an amazing book. But I think that's also part of the reason why that is part of Webster technique as well. So it's a low back muscle comes around and inserts in on the hip. But it's the main hip flexor, so it brings it attaches the lower legs to the body. So I mean, it's how your legs are attached to your body through Aries a lot literally, and figuratively speaking and it's part of Webster technique. And I think sometimes when we work on, I think sometimes it's a bone muscle like it's not just Yes, we're adjusting bone, the spine and looking at spinal function and how that impacts brain function. But looking at those other aspects of Webster technique, I think kind of give it that big all encompassing like wow, this really impacts the nervous system and can help process some of those traumas because I don't know if you noticed, but sometimes like that someone's muscle can be really, really tight and really, really tense and painful on women when they're pregnant.

Unknown Speaker  13:47  

And a lot of that is you know, like, because it attaches to the vertebra but it attaches to the front part of it. So it's kind of like in their gut in their belly and then so many things that people are like, Oh, I don't need a chiropractor. I don't have any bumps, bruises falls, but it's because we're sitting you know, so many people are sitting I mean, I'm sitting right now you're sitting right now, you know we sit all day long, so we compress that so as muscle or compressive or reduce it and then you get up and stand and walk around and that tension can absolutely like you said earlier you know and I if one side is pulled more or another than the baby tends to only stay on the left side if the other or the right side so the baby is only staying on one side to me that's a complete red flag. Like Oh, you're so is is way too tight on that side causing that imbalance because babies are supposed to move around a lot, but that's so as Yeah, it does. It produces a lot of fear. It's that tension that fetal like you've talked about. So yeah, so like if you do get in that sympathetic mode that gets the fetal position the shoulders around and then you kind of curl into that ball that contrasts that so as muscle so if we have that fear with birth sometimes, and yeah, if you've got that imbalance, you know, it's really pulling on one side versus the other. It's Yes, let's release this biomechanically. And looking at through chiropractic care, but also kind of addressing what you said, like, okay, what are your thoughts and fears and emotions going into this birth? Right? Because, yeah, if they're fearful, they're going to be in that more hunched down position, they'll go home and they lay down on the couch in the fetal position or just the reclining position, shortening that area. of stress, Dad, I mean, you know, I was just talking to my son a couple of weeks ago where you know, he was had a situation and he was just really slouched over and I'm like, stand up straight. And as soon as he stood up, you know, he's like, Oh, you're recovering. I'm like, I know it. As soon as you stand up straight or stretching up you're opening that so as you're making your field self feel stronger. I mean, if you out in the wild and you see a you know, a black bear or a grizzly bear, they get up on all fours and make themselves as big as possible. They're not staying in that hunched down position, that upright is the more confident strong position and that can be or you need that confidence. You need that strength going into birth because that emotions of just everything pulls it right down.

Unknown Speaker  15:55  

So people think it's so much work to do when you're pregnant.

Unknown Speaker  16:00  

Right. I know that to bring any more stress to you.

Unknown Speaker  16:06  

That's the hard part. Sometimes, but it's it's still really like it's just the information because I do think the information is power. So then at least you are aware of it and like Hey, okay, yeah. What are the things I can do? So, what else can moms do?

Unknown Speaker  16:21  

To combat that, that fear and stress in birth? So, I mean, one I think preparing themselves taking taking a private childbirth education class, and like you said, you did the hospital class taking a childbirth education class and preparing your body physically and emotionally for birth a minute left the Hypno babies Hypno birthing concept, because of how they're changing the mindset.

Unknown Speaker  16:46  

And like, no one would go into a sporting event unprepared. You need to take a childbirth education class, but taking one where you're really connecting with a person. Getting a doula I think is critical.

Unknown Speaker  16:57  

Deep breathing, you know, making sure you're taking those deep belly breaths, five deep belly breaths a day. I mean, not every time you breathe, but anytime you're feeling that stressed out mode. I mean, you know, any child who says sterically for crying, you're trying to get them to calm down and the way they calm down, is to take those deep belly breaths, you know, so they're like getting that emotional, calming down of parents, getting them exercising and like going out for walks, yoga, swimming, running, whatever it is that you're doing, you know, start doing if you're not doing it, start doing it, maybe don't start running if you're already running, you know, get that exercise, keep doing that eating well. You know, I don't think people it realize the impact of eating you know what they're eating, making sure they're eating plenty of protein definitely getting adjusted. I mean, that's a huge part of it is, you know, is getting adjusted and working on us working is on their nervous system and making sure that their body is relaxed as much as possible, you know, staying away from the, you know, the thoracic spine and all major aspects and finding someone who's Webster certified. Yes, I'm very, very biased in that. But any single chiropractor can adjust the sacrum any chiropractor can adjust and around just about a rubber belly and say they're doing Webster but the specifics of what you're doing, the intention of why you're doing it sets a Webster certified chiropractor apart from somebody who's not Webster certified or somebody, you know, who you know, isn't staying up with it and doesn't have those connections. I mean, that's what people will say, you know, when they come to our office, your office, it's like, you guys know so much you guys have so many connections. Oh my God, that's the Webster certification is it's not just a dusting a belly or dusting on sacrum and rubbing a belly. It's everything else that goes with it.

Unknown Speaker  18:30  

You know, and just being really intentional and then probably the last thing is having that support group. You know, whether it's the pathways group of moms group, something that you can connect to the other like minded moms, so they can have that emotional support. So I love it when moms come in and and they happen to be using the same midwife as somebody else in the office and I may introduce them just so they can have that connection or you know, just like, hey, talk about your experiences, because I can't, you know, I can have my experience, but it's like, I want them to talk to other moms, you know, so I don't have to talk as much.

Unknown Speaker  19:02  

So they can have that on that tribe. Right? Yeah, they need that they need that tribe. So whether we have the tribe in our office or in and just Cobb County, Georgia or metro Atlanta or Georgia, or, you know, all across the country, it's like they need that tribe of people in they need the in person connection. I mean, that was really one of the one of the best and worst things about COVID is you know, here's a zoom, like we could have zoom meetings, but people need that physical connection. They need to see the smiles they need the eyes. They need the touch, they need the hugging.

Unknown Speaker  19:31  

Right. And that really slowed down over the past couple of years. And I think that's why C sections increased and why feedbacks decreased is because people lost that physical emotional connection and the hugging and like, feeling of safety. So having that debate, I guess it depends on where they live and what their main thought processes but having that emotional connection to other people is important and making sure that you have support at home because not all pregnancies are happy.

Unknown Speaker  19:59  

People don't always have a partner. Maybe there's a relationship and a divorce or separation or someone really goes in and so, you know, finding people where they are and meeting them where they're at, but having that having that social connection I think is really important.

Unknown Speaker  20:13  

I and maybe even sitting too and saying like okay, what is really the basis of any sort of fear, stress anxiety that you have with the birth is it that lack of control, you know, is it Yeah, that fear of the pain and maybe pinpointing that and then saying okay, well what can I do? What resources are out there that can bring you more knowledge of that area to you know, so being like oh, yeah, birth just it's just stresses me out. You know, it's, I'm afraid of giving birth, okay. Yeah, maybe pinpointing it a little bit more.

Unknown Speaker  20:49  

Because if they say the lead me, to me, the number one thing people say is the fear of the pain or the fear of the unknown. So it's like, okay, it's, it's going to be painful.

Unknown Speaker  20:58  

But how can you adapt to that? You can take a class you can move around, the more you're still in labor, the worse it is, generally speaking, it maybe you want to get an epidural or maybe you do some other class or deep breathing. I mean, if you can try to address those fears ahead of time. All you can ask them to do is the best they can do. And they're going to you know, just prepare them emotionally as much as possible so they can feel more confident going into it versus, you know, afraid of something and so, you know, sometimes they're like I'm afraid of tearing Okay, okay, you're gonna tear or an episiotomy happens if you're flat on your back and you're not moving and you're not getting adjusted. I mean, people can have the other plug for it, but if they're getting they're not getting adjusted in their sacrum is stuck, then they're more likely to tear and that's why the adjustments are so important to allow their body to move allow the pelvis to open up so they don't tear so they you know, they can or maybe not don't tear but they cares less. So it's just providing the, you know, explaining what you're doing, what you're doing and how that potentially can help them overcome some of their fears, you know, and definitely getting them away from the fear of a due date because like, it should be a two month you know, do you know 37 To 42 weeks, you know, you know, what is that range and you know, I just had a lady come back yesterday, hadn't been in in a couple of years, and I was pregnant again, had a C section the first time and she wants a C section. She's like, I just don't want to go through that. And I'm like, that's okay. You know, if that's what you want, I'll support you, no matter what, you know, we'll still get on just to you because that's going to help you emotionally physically as well. And it's probably gonna help you recovered from your C section. You know, she's going into it knowing that's what she wants, and that's, you know, just meeting her where she's at but you still can address some of the fears because now she's gonna have to take care of a you know, a new baby, we're running around the house, that transition and like you're gonna you know, it's not just you and the baby if you have a baby and a toddler. At home, you know, so, you know, just, you know, helping her and supporting her in that way I think is really is really good. So, you know

Unknown Speaker  22:58  

it's, I'm glad you mentioned someone wanting coming in and you know, wanting that repeat C section and that's what they feel comfortable with. And you meet them where they're at. Because, you know, yeah, that if that's what you want them. Let's support that I'm going to present a juice I think you should be adjusted because your nervous system is going to play a big part in this process, right, the hormones for oxytocin release from the pituitary gland. So this is all brain chemistry, and we've got to have that good communication from the body to the brain of the brain to the body. Right. So it's, you know, it's kind of, you can use that chiropractic care for whatever birth that someone desires, because again, to it's best to go in to that birth. With as much of a regulated nervous system as possible. Yeah, their bodies really.

Unknown Speaker  23:47  

Yeah, yeah, they're gonna they certainly can have the physical pains of being pregnant but just the emotions of all the stresses they're dealing with. And yeah, you're adjusting them. It's gonna make a huge difference. It's gonna I always say it's going to help them even recover, typically from their C section better, because their nervous system is working more efficiently. So that's just the face and our fear is, you know, Lincoln, I had to take care of it, you know, so it's just, there's so many different different things and it's great you know, but everybody has their different perception of fear you know, we say like, how are you perceiving things? Are you perceiving things as happy or sad or, you know, everybody can look at the same thing you know, even like a COVID. Like we people viewed that as is different senses of fear sick, like how people are perceiving things absolutely affects their nervous system. as well. You know, whether you're perceiving things as horrible as when you're perceiving something as good or, you know, whatever, different fears and so just adapting to them and, you know, working with them as much as possible, but I think we, far too often people overlook the fear component of birth.

Unknown Speaker  24:50  

And so I like to address that as much as I can within the time that they're in the office, you know, if anything, just making them feel better selves, making them feel they're in a safety place, whether it's here or their office, or home or partners or whatever. So there's so much stuff. I know.

Unknown Speaker  25:09  

All right. Anything else you wanted to mention?

Unknown Speaker  25:12  

Today? No. Well, I will say, not about fearing birth, but I've met it I will say that I love your podcast. I listen to it all the time. But there's things Rachel did one I remember listening to it last year. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I like wrote notes and I use that in my Webster seminar that I teach now and I learned stuff from you. So this is a great podcast because I love I love listening to you guys. You guys teach me? I use some of the things you say like you just did that one on epidurals. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is so good. And I literally took some of that stuff. And I taught it when I taught Webster this past weekend. I like I did a little blurb on it. And I was like, I learned this from Rachel and Shannon. So keep doing what you're doing.

Unknown Speaker  25:50  

Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, you know what, you were a big part of this podcast in the making. 13 years 13 And Rachel two oh my gosh, yeah. I know. So well. I had a wonderful time. I'm so glad you joined me today. And do you mind sharing with listeners where they can find you where they can connect with you and all that information? Well, our the website is active life correct or to your active life. on Instagram, we're active life Cairo. On Facebook, I think we're active life chiropractor also. So those three places are really the main things and I mean, obviously they can connect via email as being you know, and things like that. But we're we're relatively increasing our social media presence. But I was like

Unknown Speaker  26:45  

I said the other day and I was like, I'm just trying to stay relevant

Unknown Speaker  26:55  

but if you want to, you know, share all the knowledge that you have I tried to it's because there's so much it's it's crazy how much you like yeah, like this month is 23 years of high school and I'm like, Oh my God, I feel like I still have so much more to learn. And it was just kind of cool. It's like and that's what's amazing about the human body is like there's just it's never you know, you never can you never know it all as long as so it's it's kind of fun. It's fun, but I was I'm glad I want to thank you for letting me come on because I know we had talked about it in the past. And I'm like, you know, I want to address the one thing that I think you know, you're you're so good at addressing the biomechanical causes of dystocia and you explain registers so well when you're doing your podcast and Rachel's obviously talking about the childbirth education class and then processes that people go through in the hospitals and stuff and she's awesome at that. I'm like, Well, let me kind of fill this little thing about the fear because sometimes I think it just wanted to give a little tidbits on that because I sometimes I think it over getting gets overlooked. We just we don't look at people's state of fear going into birth as much as we should. So thank you right now. I'm so glad you're on today. I wrote lots of little notes. I wrote. I have my outline here. I have lots of notes. So lots of information from you. But yeah, thank you so much for joining me today. Tune in every Wednesday for a new podcast episode. Don't forget to check out the show notes. We're going to link all of some of the articles that Dr. Pam mentioned today will link all of where you can find her and connect with her ways to support the podcast as well and then ways to kind of connect with us and be part of our email newsletter. So again, tune in every Wednesday and we will see you soon.

Unknown Speaker  28:38  

Thanks for listening to the Align birth podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, screenshot it and tag us on Instagram at alligned underscore birth or leave a rating and review. If you don't want to miss our newest episodes, be sure to tap the subscribe button. Your support is greatly appreciated. As always we strive to bring you lots of information because knowledge is power and applied knowledge is empowerment. Thanks again for being here and see you next week.