Ep 75: The importance of tummy time with TUMMYTIME! Method creator and founder Michelle Emanuel

If you have a new baby chances are you’ve been asked by your health care providers about how your baby is doing during tummy time.  So what’s the big deal?  In this episode, Dr. Shannon interviews Michelle Emanuel, a pediatric occupational therapist, who specializes in posture, feeding, neurodevelopment, social nervous system, and manual therapies.  In her 26 years of working with infants in a hospital setting, and infants and older kids in private practice, she was able to combine her expertise and understanding of neurological development and create a program to help parents who were struggling with tummy time.  In this interview, Michelle and Dr. Shannon geek out a bit on neurological development, but it really sets the stage for understanding why tummy time is important.  

We talk about:

• Why tummy time is important
• Some of the common issues she sees
• Why she created the program
• What TUMMYTIME! Method offers parents and professionals
• Tips for tummy time
• Her background and why she created the program
• Some of the other programs she’s created (linked below)

How to connect with Michelle:

TUMMYTIME! Method 

Instagram

YouTube 

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Transcript

Unknown 0:00

Hello, hello, this is the aligned birth Podcast. I'm Dr. Shannon, one of the podcast hosts. And today is an interview day. I'm super excited. We've got Michelle Emmanuel on the show today. And this is a fun when we haven't done this topic before and it's going to be all about tummy time. So this is definitely geared towards our new parents and new families and trying to navigate having this new little baby in your world. And hopefully you've heard the word tummy time I'm in understand a little bit about it. But sometimes as a new parent, you can be like wait, what I need to put my baby on the belly. What does this do? Why are we doing this? And how does it help? And so what we're going to talk about today is going to be all about, you know, what is tummy time? Why is it important? And how can it really set his cascade for neurological development, motor skills, cognitive social function, because it's all connected we're gonna go into some of the issues that Michelle sees as well what she does with her brands and programs and the support that she offers, not only professionals but families too, and then some tips that she has for tummy time. So the expert we have on the show today, like I said as Michelle and Manuel she's been a pediatric occupational therapist for over 26 years, specializing in posture, feeding neurodevelopment social nervous system and manual therapy for pre crawling baby. She's an international board certified lactation consultants and national board certified reflexologist, a yoga therapist and she is certified in cranial sacral therapy. She's developed several novel curriculums for multidisciplinary professionals including tummy time method, which is a big one we're gonna be talking about today, baby mio and autonomic nervous system therapeutics. So I am really, really excited to speak with Michelle on the show today. So welcome my friend.

Unknown 1:51

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. I'm really excited. This was my favorite topic to talk about. And I love the your concept is aligned versus is so much about how I feel about Tommy time to like, you know, it's aligned, meaning we want to have good alignment. We also want it to be aligned with our values and what matters to us. You know, and just like you mentioned, tummy time matters to new families because our pediatricians are asking us to do it. We know that it's important for development but we're not sure exactly how to do it and it can be really challenging. So thanks for having me.

Unknown 2:28

I love it. And I love that you commented on the line birth name because it's like it has just fit so many things that we talked about the don't like yes, we want everything to be aligned. That was morals and actually physically aligned. Yes. Okay. So I found I found you on Instagram, which is where I seem to find all the cool people, right. But you share some wonderful like reels and videos and I remember coming across it because when I work with a lot of infants in the office, I'm constantly talking about tummy time and I want to see how it's going and you know, I want to watch them do it. And then a lot of times it's like they need help they need extra support and a little bit of more information. And so I found you and I was like oh my god, this is so good. So I sent it to a lot of my families. And so I want to start today with maybe for like those new parents. Like if you don't even know that yes, baby needs to spend some time on the belly, like what does tummy time look like because it looks different in that very newborn stage, infant stage and as they get a little bit older and they get a little bit stronger with the muscles like it kind of changes a bit there. So maybe kind of coming in and telling us like, what is tummy time?

Unknown 3:40

Yeah, that's great, because if you look it up and like Wikipedia said it's an American colloquialism. I'm talking about how babies are on their bellies for play. And you know that that makes sense but because, you know, we're in a global world, we actually have babies all over that need to do tummy time. And you're right, it changes significantly from birth until, you know, the the big first milestone is 12 weeks when we're exiting the fourth trimester. That's three months. And from that newborn stage, they're laying there, the head is on the ground, the booty is usually up. And when you look at a three month old, the head is held up right. The chin is parallel to the floor. They're using their arms to press up they've got their chest up off the surface, and their body is long and straight. And so it takes a lot to get from that starting point until that point where they can really have the confidence, strength and the endurance to hold themselves up. So it's a journey and a continuum. And thankfully, you know, even though there's a similar flow to neuro development, every baby still does it their own way. All movement is actually not so even if you go to do the same action, pick up your tea cup, take a drink of your tea, swallow it and enjoy it but a down the next time we do that activity. It doesn't there are a lot of novelty to it. And so that's what helps us to be so coordinated our movements to be so responsive not only to the environment, but sensory input, etc. But you know, we all when I when I like to say that tummy time usually starts on our chest and that's those first couple of weeks. We're doing a lot of holding them and having them on our chest and it's really a lot of snuggling getting to know each other. And the babies really for the first time feeling gravity and feeling the weight of the head. And so these the first couple of weeks we lose a lot of body contact is what really sets the baby up to have the the ability to even want to do it. So it's important to spend that first time doing a lot of holding and cuddling and you know, rather than sitting straight up we can lean back 45 degree angle, and that lets the baby really feel gravity and tummy time because if we're sitting straight up, that's the baby is on their tummy we're holding them or baby when but it's not quite having the effects of gravity and the influence of the electromagnetic field.

Unknown 6:25

Yes, you know, I love that because I even talk about that in the office and like start till the time on your chest. And that you know, you don't have to be like completely on the floor but that leaning back and I love that you mentioned like, this is their first interaction with gravity. They've been hanging out in this like beautiful womb and just doing what they want to do. And they're like, whoa, and they get that bobblehead Fe you know, I just love that where you can just see. I mean, I love it because you can just see the neurons firing and I can see these neural pathways like forming. So and it's you all you do just lean back like you said and have baby on your chest and watch the brain grow. I love it.

Unknown 7:03

Exactly. And it really sets them up for success because they've got some experience. They have that you know the CO regulation meaning both regulated and I'm holding babies and we're doing tummy time together. We pass these feelings in between us. And we can continue that on even when we get the baby on the floor because we're right there with them. You know, especially early on now, the head is the probably the heaviest part of a baby's body. And so it is interesting to think about how you know we decided to develop like this, but you'll see some babies that will be what looks like excessively strong and they're holding their heads up. Like at week one. That's also though a little orange flag for us to look and see if we can work on more muscular neuromuscular balance. Because a baby really in the first couple of weeks shouldn't be able to do that. And if they are doing it it's not a bad thing. It's usually we just need to get them to relax a little bit and do a little bit less intense work. Because we want it to be modulated we want don't want to be using stiffness, tension and armoring which is like how we hold our muscles tight. To hold our heads in a certain position.

Unknown 8:25

That's interesting. You mentioned that yeah, because you can have you can have those infants where we have that low motor tone, you know, where you can see that we're really not engaging. We've got some extra work to do but then there's that aspect of wow, this is really hyper tense, you know, and just Yeah, that's interesting that you comment on that though, too, because I do see that. See those? Both of those in the office, you know,

Unknown 8:51

yeah. And it's not that you know, either one. We're just working through these things. We have time. We have practice we have the, you know, the next opportunity to work on these things, but it is something that I hear quite a bit as parents that we don't need any help with tummy time. He's been lifting his head since day one. And, you know, sometimes that's true, they don't need help, and sometimes they do need a

Unknown 9:17

little bit of help. Right? Yeah. And then Okay, so now does tummy time always need to be like head is lifted up. Could you comment on the aspect of maybe you know, we are laying you know, they are laying on their belly but like the right cheek? is laying on the ground and then they move head and the left cheek is kind of resting down. Is there importance in that as well?

Unknown 9:44

Yeah, that's a great question, because I think that's probably the one of the most surprising things about 2019 is that it's really not meant to be all hard work. It's not meant to be the super intense lifting up, turning, straining, stretching. That is a part of it. That's how he's had method. We call it balancing the effort with the E. So we do know that babies need lay, yeah, lay their head down and do what we can't yield to the surface. Because if you do have some tension or imbalanced muscles in your neck or shoulder, a lot of times we're not using balanced tension. We're using a lot of tension and tightness that doesn't feel that comfortable. So we do want the baby being able to lay their head down and pick their head up and lay their head down and pick their head up and do this with you know, a fair amount of decent effort. Not too much effort, not too little effort, and also being able to just relax because you're right. Some of the beauty of tummy time is on the front side of the body. There are special receptors there special sensory integration places in the body on the front side, that wake up that stimulate in a very good way. And that send off the cascade of sensations all through our nervous system that helps it mature and grow and move along. What I call the biological imperative. It's this thing that's going on with every baby when you see it. You know, we call it curiosity and play and motivation but there's something in our human babies that's helping to drive them towards these more mature behaviors. And then it helps to tap into that and make it seem like hey, this is natural. This is what I should be could be am doing. Rather than this is too much. This is I can't do this. Because that's what I hear a lot about me most of what I do is helping problem solve babies to enjoy tummy time so they can actually just really like it because if they like it, they're gonna do

Unknown 11:57

they're gonna do it. And that's families like, exactly. Feels good. Exactly. Because that's what your well he hates to me kind of like, Oh, we got to work with this. And that's what I found you online because I'm like, oh, you know, it's because I know it's so important. But, you know, a lot of times I'm looking at the babies when there are you know, if we don't have that symmetrical like left cheek can always just gracefully and effortlessly lay there and then go to the other side as well too. And this is I like to bring these awareness points to my parents of like Okay, so we're gonna do the adjustment. Now I want to see what differences you notice because we should have that full range of motion of the neck and be able to rest. I love that. You mentioned that it's, it's that balanced effort with ease. I think sometimes everybody thinks of tummy time is like, okay, it's got to be super stimulating. I gotta have all the toys over here. It's kind of loud, you know? And it's like, no, maybe maybe that's one of the keys is to like calm it down a bit. And yes, stimulation.

Unknown 12:59

Yes. Yes, most tell me time spot that I see. A lot of them online. Just too much stuff there. Now a lot of these don't mind clutter. Necessarily, because that can be a lot of opportunities for different things to look at. But things get in the way of our movement and we won't move well in a crowded areas we might be I can be entertained looking. But it's not going to stimulate our body to move.

Unknown 13:34

Yeah, and I think those those type things can be good once we get to a point of okay, we have really lifted up and we've got, you know, head fully up, arms are kind of straight. Okay, now we can move this right hand over here, grab this, like it's kind of that progression of it. So maybe sometimes they start out a little too, too overstimulated there.

Unknown 13:55

You're right, because it has to have to be playful. And babies do love you know bit. Some babies do it a little earlier, but I was saying reliably around three months babies are starting to want to you know snack and swing and push and pull and reach pretty consistently and toys can be really helpful.

Unknown 14:16

Yeah. Definitely I get a peek there pique their interest, although sometimes you know they're just amazed by the fans. Find that, you know, when they're like, oh, they found the fan. Like I didn't think much say that right. Okay, so I want to I want to go into a little bit about like, what brought you to creating specifically this tummy time Method program? Like is there anything with your personal you know, history, or did you just kind of like see any philony type of thing? How did this come about?

Unknown 14:56

I think a combination of both of those plus having my three children. You're now 1921 and 24. And I remember yeah, having my little buddy my first son and it was just I loved him so much. I know all the parents out there understand that. And as a therapist, I just kept thinking to myself how can I show him I love him. I knew I needed to tell him. I knew I needed to hold him a lot. I knew I was doing all these things. But how else and so I started playing around with development again and I was a young ot at the time. And you know, we'd all knew that. Babies need to be in all these different positions, et cetera. And he was born C section so he had a little bit more trouble early on. Nursing and I had gotten the meds for all the things and it had messed with me a little bit. And so I will I felt like things were a little off between us in that way. So I started using massage and touch and movement to connect with him and I felt so empowered. As a young mother doing that and that really kind of set the flame of fire and then I was a work when he was six months old. We moved to Cincinnati, Ohio from South Georgia, and I started working in January of 1999. He was six months old. At Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center and it was my dream job. I was hired to work in their NICU and and so here I was a young mother. The six month old baby working with very ill babies in the NICU and I fell in love with that. And I learned all about babies and all kinds of diagnoses and all different types of things that I could never imagine with babies, and I ended up working there a total of 17 and a half years. That was a long time and a very good time and about half of that was in the NICU. And then after that I switched over to an outpatient caseload because I had the two girls and I wanted to work part time and have a little bit more time at home. So that was very nice. By the end I was working 210 hour days and being what I considered almost a full time mom. And you know, I was working with all these babies having trouble with tummy time. A lot of them were coming in with torticollis and plagiocephaly or all kinds of head molding and other types of persistent asymmetries. And it became really important to get good at tummy time I can tell so I started then. And as an occupational therapist, one of the things that we are trained to do is called an activity analysis. And so I do that I an activity analysis is going in depth with what with what's required in this position for this movement. And what did it require brain development and neural development. And I made list notebooks and I made all kinds of things. So what I ended up coming up with was a sequence of movements that kind of incorporated not just me time but transitional movements, and also was more about looking at how the nervous system was responding in to me time versus just how they were doing, like from a physical perspective. And so I learned a lot more than I thought I was going to learn and the babies were my teachers. allowed that, you know, and I also had the, you know, part of that was where I was and I had these opportunities to try lots of things. And I could fail in a sense because I was finding things that were working too and I was working in high risk and through follow up clinic and international adoption clinics. I was seeing children from all over and it was working, you know, with each one so that was really how it came about was my mind as an OT I knew it had to be somewhat of a sequence or a template that we could follow. And also one that several different people could look at the same scenario and get the same information or give the same information to help make it easier or better or more regulated for the family. So that was about Ella was like one or two and so she's 19 Now, so it feels like a really long time ago and obviously we've made changes along the way. But I started teaching other professionals almost right away probably 10 to 15 years ago and I was traveling all over the country teaching people and this was before we got really good at teaching online. Yeah.

Unknown 19:52

And I just got a lot of really great feedback that it was it was really helpful and so that's why I created it. So it's, you know, generic tummy time. Like the word tummy time means being on your belly for play. Tummy time method is a way of doing tummy time that helps the nervous system regulate helps the problem solve the issues. So they're they're not totally interchangeable because tummy time methods a little bit more than just laying on your belly but they are infused together. And one of the things that I think it's really important about telling time is that we really can't because even if it's hard even if it's difficult, what we want to do is find out why because this is the natural developmental progression for human babies. And we want to figure out why we don't want to just skip it because it will make a difference later. And that's where working outpatient helped me because I kept seeing these older kids that were having problems with crossing the midline using their hands for cutting.

Unknown 21:00

Right fine motor skills. I'm just shaking my head like this whole entire time that you're talking like all the things what a beautiful journey, you know, and that's why I like to ask the folks that we interview as far as like, you know, how did you get here because a lot of times it's it's a little bit of that parent parental experience and Earth experience and early motherhood experience that you have. And then it's also the work experience and clinical experience that it's like that mesh of the two. And so that is now what a beautiful journey in a way to use you wanting to connect with your newborn endless to like heal both of you guys and then how this kind of you know, grew out of that because my first is also a C section baby and I was able to have a VBAC with my second but there's differences you know, and I've even talked about on the show like you know, there's a difference for not only mom in dealing with the C section versus a vaginal birth or you know, staring versus vaginal but also for baby, it's a big difference in how they're born. And so, I'm sure you see to a lot of differences in not that it's, they're always going to have the same potential issues but differences between a vaginal birth versus Assyrian and then how they are navigating the world outside of the woman how they are actually doing tummy time. You know, you see those differences, I'm sure. Oh,

Unknown 22:21

yeah, it's, it's profound, and I was able to do that both of my girls too. Yay. I know. And, you know, nothing wrong with if you don't get the opportunity to do that. But if you get the opportunity, you know, I felt really blessed and able to do that. But yeah, there is a big difference. And there were certain things that I did differently with my son because he was born by C section. I think, because I knew as an OT, as the sensory piece of it. So that was also why I was looking for some hands on

Unknown 22:56

you were already an occupational therapist. Correct. You were set. Yeah. And so that makes sense. I wasn't a chiropractor at the time and so like it wasn't until I went back to school after I had my tickets it was also like oh gosh okay, let's let's make up for this you know, which is fine, but also to say to you know, never too late like we can put in we can put in the work but you said something else too. And I wanted to I got a couple of things like I want to know Okay, what does tummy time lead to like and we kind of, you know, talked about that it's that progression of movements and okay, you know, we start here but what it can lead to, but then also the aspect of we can't skip it. And so just because it's hard, you know, I work with a lot of parents are like, Oh, well, we just don't do it because it's difficult. And so maybe babies on the back a little bit more, the rolling front to back back to front is a little bit off. And then it's you know, there's just differences there to know and so and then also the aspect of your that a lot with like crawling oh and even people that straight to walking and understanding that there is a very big developmental aspect to crawling and cross crawling and that aspect as well. So let's, let's go into like what does tummy time lead to? Like, why is it important for that cascade of further developmental events?

Unknown 24:25

Yeah, that's this is one of, you know, I can go into the big depth, but I think what I'll do is I'll cruise through it and we could dip in a little bit. But the first thing that comes to mind is that it's all about achieving extension, which is straightening. Because the gestational playground during pregnancy is a lot of flexion meaning that you're flexed your bed,

Unknown 24:49

your fetal position. That's why we call it fetal position. You're in that little C shape.

Unknown 24:54

And then even though baby will extend for short periods of time when they kick or when they move or when they turn around. A majority of the time is spent in deflection and that's really important for a certain aspect of our nervous system. Then the natural progression is once birth happens that we move into more extension. And we're gonna then use extension. We can't really do that for long periods of time and we can do it for longer periods of time and gravity. And we also have reflexes which are things that are way more helpful our body do because of the position. So when you place a baby on their tummy, there's a natural reflex to extend and that will happen just because the position that they're in. The other thing that is really common is that our babies because we're in this fetal flexion and have a lot of asymmetries. Most babies even when they're not having a lot of problems with them, we will still prefer one side of their head. And the other one, there will be other asymmetries one leg will kick a little bit more than the other. And these are mile. So one of the things that's important about tummy time is that it eradicate these natural asymmetries that babies have because of the reflexes, and because of how the body lengthens out when they're laying on their belly. So I would say those two things immediately extension and then working out the asymmetries because even though we none of us need to be perfectly symmetrical, babies use their tongues in their mouths a lot and the tongue is a midline, multi muscular organ depends on both sides for its function. And so it's important for feeding to improve along with that in the first you especially three, four or five, six weeks, and we want a really good feeding pattern established and very few asymmetries noted and the baby being able to move into extension fairly easily in the first month, month and a half. Now, if we don't get enough experience with that, sometimes that can slow that down. Another thing is that I mentioned reflexes and reflexes are position dependent. So let's say for example, we take a baby and they're two weeks old and we lay them on your back. There's not very many reflexes, if any, that babies have auto backs, that's position dependent about being on their back that helps them with their posture or their movement. But when we lay a baby on their tummy, improve, there's a whole plethora of reflexes that are triggered just because of being in the position of prep, and it stimulates the body to wiggle and move into weight shifts, which stimulates other areas to move and there are these reliable patterns that happen for the baby in this position. So that's another thing and if we don't do tummy time, or we're, you know, it's not about doing enough it really is just about doing a little really a little goes a long way. We don't have to do long sessions to get benefit. I would say frequent short sessions.

Unknown 28:37

The other thing I get asked that a lot how often so we'll get into that in a minute too. But yeah,

Unknown 28:42

yeah, that's the number one question.

Unknown 28:44

Like how long do I gotta do this thing? I never

Unknown 28:48

got extension. We've got eradicating asymmetries. We've got reflexes that need to be stimulated, otherwise they lay dormant and they cause problems. And we get them reflexes that are inhibited, and some that are exaggerated, because there's not enough balance. So the other thing is that it's this whole thing about experience like we actually get better at the things we do, and we get worse at the things we don't do. And that's true for all of us, including babies.

Unknown 29:28

Yeah, and it's part of that practice aspect of it, you know, and just putting in that little bit of work I'm still working on with my 12 year old it's like school, right? I'm like, okay, buddy, let's say for this test now. 

Unknown 0:00

I work in outpatient and I had older clients at the time. Didn't matter how old they were, guess what we were going to do. We were going to get in tummy time. Because many of these children were receiving needed occupational therapy because they hadn't had these experiences early on. The other thing is listening for years to parents say knowing even told me time nearly never determined time and then making these issues.

Unknown 0:28

Aha, the issues that you see now. Yep, I can connect nation. I issues Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love it. I geek out on this. And you know, I think you know, Dr. Martin roses. So yeah, so I interviewed him on the show. That's where I've learned a lot of my pediatric training and cranial work with through when he was part of the icpa and stuff and so and I saw that you he knew of this program or whatnot, and that's when I was like, oh, gosh, I love this. So we talked a week he and I talked a lot about those primitive reflexes. And so I know occupational therapists look at it in that realm, too, of looking at that brain function. I even had some patients, their occupational therapists that work with children and we talked about these things. They'll be like, Oh, what about this at and our result? You see, you know, like, all of those things. It's early on, but it is all connected. It's all connected. So I mean,

Unknown 1:21

yeah, because you're talking about primitive reflexes. And we were talking about primitive reflexes, postural reflexes, and how integrated reflexes are into the sensory integration system. So we can't really even separate those out we do. We separate them and talk about them and understand them a little bit, but we really can't separate our sensory system from our reflexes, because the sensory system is what is allowing our brain to do what it does, because without the proper sensory input, we're not going to get the proper motor output. And that actually explains a lot of developmental problems. In a very generic way. But saying that could be true for almost every child that has some developmental issues. Yeah, we're even adults like me. I'm still working on my sensory processing.

Unknown 2:17

Oh, heck yeah, I crawl. I tell people like crawling is one of like, my exercises that I do. I got what I call it backward. Like it's slow. It's control. Yeah.

Unknown 2:30

I chuckle a little bit because a lot of times on Instagram I'll get I love the comments on Instagram because, one, it's real like, okay, these are real life, people having real life issues, and you can just kind of even imagined who the person is because, you know, our personalities do come through even our comments, but I chuckle when I get this one because I get it quite a lot. Is that Well, I've never crawled I skip crawling and I'm fine.

Unknown 2:57

Yeah, yeah, it's

Unknown 2:58

just kind of funny to me, because, like, there's zero way that you've never crawl in your life. Okay. So it doesn't it doesn't matter like you did like I skipped throwing I never crawl. I guarantee you, you crawl at some point in your life. Okay. So you don't We don't always need to do things in the exact order that everyone else does it. But, you know, I've never seen an ocpp Cairo clinic who's working on neural patterns that isn't having kids go back and work on crawling or isn't nothing is inaccurate or wrong, and even some of the therapy classes that I've taken over the years, we've got write down more and expand our own problem pattern. To continue to change anything we missed out on you know that that's the power of our nervous system that is very greedy to learn. And it is. We can do that across the life. So

Unknown 4:07

even never to like the crawl

Unknown 4:09

never even as a baby hadn't even crawl right at that six to nine month that's really the window for like, when's crawling typically happen. We can get in the call at any time and it will make a difference. So that's another thing we don't ever have to miss out on it and we can you know, pretend to be dogs and running around the room and crawling through tunnels and do all these things. It's really just fun. But it's really helping us to lay down the neural patterns that make it easier for us to create novel movement and satisfying and helping us meet our goals, whatever those are,

Unknown 4:48

whoever. Yeah, you know, and when I was in chiropractic school, I remember taking some functional movement classes and talking about problems. So it wasn't even in some of the pediatric classes. It was just, you know, adult functional movement patterns. And I remember thinking I was like my mom always said that like, it's almost like a proud moment sometimes like, Oh, my baby skipped, you know, skipped crawling with right talking and I feel like my mom has always said that about me. And then I'm sitting in that class and I'm like, Oh, my God, I need to crawl. I'm like, This is what's wrong with me now. Like going back and saying, okay, because I'm a great runner, but I do not have that hand eye coordination to do in other types of sports and things and like, I wonder if that if that was why because it's, you know, crawling and I use the handbooks because you know, now I'm all over the office and all over crawling, but looking at those those functional patterns with with all the kiddos Okay, so I want to leave you touched on this as well as in the fact that like in the womb, we've got the fetus in that fetal position, that curve, cc shaped position. The curves of the spine, actually come about and it starts with tummy time, and it's lifting up that head and neck. So I didn't know if you wanted to comment on it setting the stage for some of that development as well.

Unknown 6:12

Yeah, I mean, that's such a huge part of it, because many of us have spinal problems and maybe we're having a great life and we don't really understand you know, how it goes back to that age as well. But, you know, if we do, and for as a chiropractor, you have the best perspective as I look at where we end up with our spinal curves. You know, it can take several years to really get those full spinal curves but where does it need to start at such a great question, and it must start in it. Well, you know, I mean, I think we can make anything work if we need to, but with lifting is the first extension is obviously going to be head extension. Working from the top to the bottom, because our babies are Cephalo Caudill developers, meaning that we develop our from our head to our toe, or our booty. That's the way we develop, we mature from our head down. And so that's why a lot of times our feet lower extremities can be the most immature, you know, places on our body. But you're absolutely right. And the other thing that helps us develop the curves is, you know, obviously extending the head you're getting your chest off the surface, getting the even the lower abdomen off the surface, getting this nice extension line, but then also the rotational aspects of using our core and our abdominal muscles. And making our bike is rolling is actually a reflex to and real rolling what I'm talking about with rotation through the spine. Another thing that helps the curve develop is from the back to the belly first. There are a lot of babies that are attending time, especially the ones that love to raise their head up really, really high. That will sort of fall out so many times or will roll out because of the weight of the head. That is still okay rolling, but that's not real segmental rotation.

Unknown 8:10

It's not intentional. I asked that in the office. They're rolling. I'm like, Well, did they mean to do it? Or are they just like, wow, what just happened? Yeah.

Unknown 8:18

And there will be some babies now. That will figure out what happened and they'll repeat it. So in a sense, they are doing it intentionally after several practices, but we still really don't call that rolling in. Like, you know, I'm being a development appearance right now. And that sense? Yeah, rolling really means that we actually pull our legs back up into flexion a little bit and use this rotation pattern through our trunk and head and neck to move. So that's another issue that late rollers or babies not it's kind of goes along the same lines of extension. You're not really rotating moving on as much because I don't know about you, but I see a lot of more when I was a children's because now I'm in private practice out in private practice and I see all pre crawling babies and I will see the older kids anymore. And you know, that's okay, because I had a lot of experience with it. But I saw a lot of spinal problems in kids that were undetected, undiagnosed on attended to even kids that were older that had still flat spines or head forward posture or even still had it tilt. You know, it's like we really need you a part of this is young baby development is our drive for up right. Yeah, and that is what I see. You know, baby's having such trouble with it. If we don't get we don't get the early extension in the neck. We often have problems with where we hold our head in space, even though we're upright. Later.

Unknown 10:07

Yeah. Again, that speaks to like, it's all connected. Yeah. Right literally. I, I do really love the the aspects that you talked about as far as like what tummy time leads to because I I like you put it beautifully because it isn't just like okay, well we do tummy time because then we're going to start rolling. And then we're gonna, you know, start sitting and we're gonna get up on hands and knees like yes, there is that progression to it. But when you look at it, more of that sensory aspect in that brain growth and development and how the nervous system is functioning. So it's it's kind of twofold like you could look at it but but that's why I wanted to do this episode so much and that's why I'm so excited to find you because I was like, Oh, she makes me time like beautiful, you know, like and to really like see the baby grow and form those neural pathways. Now, you mentioned a little bit of the difference between you know, just tell me time and then tell me time method is as in a specific way of doing it. With is that just something that you offer parents maybe we go into a little bit of like what you offer parents what you offer professionals or the differences there and what makes that tummy time method

Unknown 11:30

so unique. Yeah. Well initially when I first started, the biggest deal was we talked about what's happening time method was rolling the baby in and out of tummy time and that for the longest time was like the secret because when I started doing this so long ago, it actually wasn't that far off the heels of back to sleep. You got to remember that back to sleep really just started in 1992 and I had my first baby and 98 and another one in 2001 and another one to 2003. And so at that time, there wasn't a lot of hoopla at all about timing time because babies were either still kind of doing it or you still need to grieve and sleeping on their sides at that time and that sleep wasn't as big as it grew. And the safety components over that time. So I kind of was evolving at the same time as this. So the first thing I wanted to tell everybody about the secret to doing tummy time well was don't just plunk a baby on their belly, just you know, they'd be able just holding their baby and then they would turn them over just to lay him down. On the surface just to do tummy time. And that was too stimulating. It was too much. It wasn't regulated. So the very first thing was getting everybody on board in the mid 2000s with rolling the baby in and out and that caught on to the point now where there's other people that claim that that's their, you know, claim to fame too. So okay, we just need to get babies doing this and helping families. So that was the very first part of what timing time was. And it was about the social nervous system which was very different. Especially the nervous system is looking at those parts of our very it's our opinion in our brain stem very, I don't like really using the word primitive that makes us think like old and rad. Yeah, use it but it's very, very precise area of our brain that really is the timing and the necessity of our unconscious parts of our body our heart rate or respiration and how those work together because they need to be in sync to for us to feel right. So the social nervous system has five cranial nerves that come together, that help us connect with other people and actually help our nervous system feel calm, relaxed and actually joyful when we're interacting with the other. And so I wanted to use that as a way to help babies love tummy time. And so because for me, it wasn't just about we did five minutes until the time that's going to equal out to all of us

Unknown 14:05

J Goldstar. Yeah,

Unknown 14:08

they will be crying, the baby will be upset. We got through it. They're red faced and we have to spend our time calming

Unknown 14:15

me down. Yeah,

Unknown 14:16

that was not what I wanted. So that was what the whole having a method around it mattered was that we were taking some theory and neural development and like a specific way of doing it. And it's different for each baby. So even though it's a sequence, we can individualize it to each baby because every baby's going to have a different response. And we're going to respond a little bit differently. So it became about using the rolling in and out and then the social nervous system, and really being able to bolster baby's nervous system we call regulation and resiliency. So regulation is the baby's ability to do these things, to get into these positions, to do the things that the brain is really clamoring for. Because babies who don't like movement and aren't really happy with these neural developmental movements, just need a little bit of help. That's what they're telling us. They're not actually saying I hate coming time. I hate this movement. They're saying, this is disorganizing to me, this needs to be presented in a different way. I need more support around this, this and this. But when we give that all sudden we see amazing changes happening. So of course I've tweaked it and massaged it over the years to make it even easier. But you know, so what I'm trying to offer parents is as much free information I can I've got stuff on YouTube, I've got stuff on Instagram. I've got a load of professionals that I've This is my gift overall really is to educate the professionals to be able to do this work, so that you can work one on one with someone or get into a group. Because the way I really like to teach how many times at best is in a group or a class, and we have done these in person. We've done these online. I love one on ones too, because at this special type of treatment but with one on ones, I'm usually doing some therapy, putting my hands on the baby and the group was a class environment. It's the parents delivering it all and then just as helpful, even more so than me so I don't feel I feel the my most helpful in front of a class with my baby doll and everybody there with their baby. I love doing all kinds of other things. So over these past 15 years or so, we've had multidisciplinary professionals come to trainings and attend trainings. And I you know, we still get together once a month for people even been doing this for years to even make it better to meet the families need to talk about the research, talk about new stuff that's coming up. How can we, you know, help families bridge this gap because we want it to be easy for families to do this and we want and we also ourselves included want to understand why we're doing this because like you said like some people like honestly this tummy time time period is a very short.

Unknown 17:20

It is so sure I wanted to comment on that like we we just talked about it's like that postpartum time period. No, it's like it's not

Unknown 17:27

that long in our life. Sometimes I think we're we're thinking oh my gosh, this is gonna last forever, gonna be sucking forever but it really is a very short period of time. And take it one day at a time and one activity and their time. It gets easy. And so this time doesn't feel like it ran by as much that we use it to really help implanted things for our children that they're going to need, like ready access to their motor system. And, you know, I think most parents, you know, including myself, even when I you know, we all make mistakes and we all you know, get tired and don't want to focus on something one day. You know, that's the word resiliency. So the regulations about being able to do these things, but the resiliency is the ability to hang in there and do it again next time and have the endurance and be able to bounce back from challenging things. So I think even sometimes we're working on tummy time I'm trying to get this extension the coordination but I think sometimes we don't realize we're doing the baby's cardiovascular endurance, or making it stronger for them to be able to breathe and coordinate their movement. That's where the yoga therapy, you know, after a while, I went and did yoga teacher training a couple different times because one of the things I really felt like that movement was missing realms, understanding of coordination of how we're breathing, with how we're moving. And so paying attention helping parents understand, you know, to pay attention to breathing how to help babies, regulate their breathing can be enough to help the baby really enjoy tummy time, because the breathing mechanics will actually change. And sometimes change is so hard for babies. So we're actually helping them not only learn how to do tummy time in a stronger breast report, but also how to do hard things. And how to do it. Well.

Unknown 19:31

You Yep. And you know, babies are so good at that keep trying or even you know when you talk when you see him like they just keep trying to crawl like they don't they just keep trying, you know, like it's fun to they don't feel that like since affiliates like oh can keep trying this but you you bringing it back to the breath and the coordination of movement in that cardiovascular aspect because these breathing patterns that we have as adults are somewhat formed in the in that childhood breathing patterns, you know, that we form early on. I recently did. I was a speaker at an event, like a women's retreat, and I did a whole like breathwork things were really focusing on like, vagus nerve, but, you know, one article I shared had talked about, that these breathing patterns that we have maybe that shallow breath or that you know, breath with movement and stuff. And that was formed early on. You almost hate to say this, that you don't want to overwhelm her. It's like, oh my god, if I don't do tummy time, right, my kids not gonna breathe, right? Their spine jacked up, they're gonna, you know, like, it's not that but again, even when I did Dr. Martin Rosen's interview, too, it's like, we don't want anyone to feel bad for what the experiences they've had. But it's like that weirdness like that's and that's what I feel like you're doing with this. It's like this awareness of like, how beautiful these systems are in the body that yes, are individually they work individually but connected and together. It regulates so much and so just kind of bringing awareness to

Unknown 20:59

it. Right and also giving ourselves and our babies a lot of grace, because we are so able to make change, I mean, the most plastic thing and that just means you know, being able to change shape and do things you know is our nervous system is the human nervous. system. So, and none of us are perfect and I think that's one of the things why I wanted to develop Tony I met the two because I had that I had that struggle of doing the perfect parenting thing. And that will cause me to make more mistakes is worrying about whether I'm doing it perfectly. That's why I settled in with helping my child help them like it more in tune into them more and provide whatever it is that they need. Because we can do these, all of these things at any age. You can actually start tummy time even like I just had a baby in a day come to me for the first time and they're five months old, and they've done very little to no tummy time. And the baby is starting looking very much like a six week old and that's okay and because number one development in the first year is very, it's graceful how it happens. So we get different things at different times you will watch some babies will get certain skills before other babies and then we get this kind of aggregate development that happens when we put these skills together. So we don't have to worry about to doing it perfectly. Or if we miss something we can we can always go back and get it and also trying to realize like even if your kids are older now like let's all get on the phone today. See how much we can lift our head here's the here's the thing that's interesting. Get on your belly today and see if you can turn your head fully to the right information and to look up and just to feel the inverse of lengthening, change in the tissues just in our head. Neck and airway and see how much better you feel after that. Now I had a couple of people read that in a recent class I didn't know Oh, my lower back hurts a little bit. Now take it easy on yourself. Can you muster we go very gentle because it just we got it we're all on a continuum. Taking a slow PCM little bits of time on the floor. Really great little technique I used to do. When I worked in outpatient. It didn't matter if we were doing coloring or anything we were going to do it on our tummies. You can get the kids activities to get on their tummy. And that can make a big difference at anything. Yes, I

Unknown 23:49

did the breathing exercise I did the first one I started with the crocodile breathing where you're on your belly and you feel your belly pushing to the ground and then the sides expand you know as you believe deeply and it's like yeah, not only are you working on the breathing, but we've got some other neurological things happening there. Right. But yeah, start now you can you can you can actually do this things now too, and I can tell my parents to like get on the floor with your baby. You know, like and kind of be in that world and immerse yourself with what they are doing as well too.

Unknown 24:25

Now there will also be an appearance like oh no, am I gonna have to be down on the floor forever? Really know if we set the foundation for them. And then we can start to see when the baby has more interest in the things around them than just you. And that's when we can start backing off and watching and being more an observer and just know because the baby will look back at us social reference and you're like shaking your head. Yeah, this is great. You're there. Little cheerleader. You're there. You're smiling. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, yeah, you've got this and that. I mean, that makes us all go on. We know we have our personal cheerleader, but it really does happen pretty quickly that babies get into the toys and into the playing and they don't need as much support on the floor. We put the time in early and then we can really reap the benefits later. Because there's there are the cultural barriers to tummy time is just that. You know, it takes a little bit of time. So I think that's probably the biggest thing is to just, you have a little bitty baby you know setting go ahead and setting the time aside. And I even recommend just because we're getting these new patterns in our lives anyway to go ahead and infuse that even if you could do one or two. It doesn't need to be five times a day or I know some of the literature we've looked at the research it's very focused on how long they be spent in me time and one of the articles that I used to love which was written several years ago and in occupational therapy journal, and they said that, you know, we need to do 90 minutes a day and I think that

Unknown 26:04

sounds daunting, it discourages

Unknown 26:07

so don't if that's my one tip for today, too, is don't focus on the time at all. Because time, we have to measure something in research and so that just the easiest thing to measure, and it kind of does make sense like if a baby's doing well, they're going to do more time and it's not helpful for us if we need to start tummy time or to get a really good don't just throw all that out because you know, it all comes out in the wash and spin frequent short sessions and sometimes if I'm saying if you're starting right away, every diaper change do it because they're gonna do a lot of diaper changes during the day. So you're changing the baby's diaper and you just roll them over onto their tummy, maybe give them more of a bloody massage. You do a little bit massage, rolling right back, finish the diaper, and you've done a little bit and so these little when the baby does these little bitty bits never gets overwhelmed.

Unknown 27:06

Yes, okay. So let's I love that. I love that tip. And the whole I know I understand that aspect of time and that can sound like it sounds overwhelming. Any let's see any other little tips that you would recommend for parents who are listening?

Unknown 27:28

Well I like to roll with you the now that's not in there that prepares them and gets them ready. Also kind of teaches them to roll is to do frequent short sessions. So don't worry about how long they're there. Just try to do a few more. If you want to. I mean three, when they start to complain, be done. Right then. It is not something that you need to convince them to work through that problem right then simply tuning in and acknowledging helps them processing difference. So, you know, you don't have to push through these hard things. We don't need to have babies crying, or fussing and coming time I have been around say tell me time method is a no cry method. We don't have any crying and coming on.

Unknown 28:20

There's no crying It's me time.

Unknown 28:23

Yeah, because it doesn't help it because at that point, you're dysregulated you're

Unknown 28:27

disrupt Exactly. Yeah,

Unknown 28:29

now there's some babies who go real quick. We roll them over and then they just immediately do, we're going to respond right away. You know, sometimes you're gonna hear a baby that will talk. But that doesn't mean overcoming time. That baby that's not a big talker. We want to pay attention to facial expressions and the breathing pattern that will let us know to if they need a break. But, you know, one of my big things is don't roll the baby out of tummy time if they're looking relaxed and comfortable. But you know what to pay attention to those babies that are starting to get a little dysregulated maybe they're breathing and starting to increase a little bit. We can just call him out, give him a break. We don't have to work to this exhaustion point. That doesn't help babies. Babies have they're different from us. I think that's one thing too, is understanding that they're very different from us. So when we lay our backs you know, we don't feel the same thing they do when we lay on our bellies. We don't have those reflexes, we don't have those same urges and instincts and even sometimes obligatory movements because of our position. So that's why we really treat babies a little bit different and understand they're going through something different than that.

Unknown 0:01

And it doesn't have to be like what we would do if we work outward and work through something better through it. Yeah, calm down regulate them smile. Because this is my other tip. And this is something that sometimes I hear parents may like, they pop their head at me like, do tummy time when baby's happy. And I know that sounds very antithetical and you know what to get the baby upset, but when they're happy, they're way more likely to be able to do well. Not a good time you tell me time, just having time if they're feeling a little bit grumpy or having difficulty now when we do the whole tummy time at the program. You know, what we guarantee is that after you do it, the baby is going to feel better because of the way we do it. So you can actually take a fussy baby and help them feel better doing tummy time method. But you can't count on that with just doing just turning if that makes any sense.

Unknown 0:56

Yeah, and I wanted to say to that like if you if you're having those issues and it's like me time is always a struggle like that's when I want to say this is when we seek out that help, you know and saying okay, I do need some additional help you know, with an Blendo support team, you know, timing time method, occupational therapists, pediatric chiropractors, like those types of things to look at. Okay, well, why is this causing such dysregulation to the nervous system to

Unknown 1:25

you know, really finding out and fixing but helping that get out, so that it can be, you know, not a stumbling block anymore. One of the things I do want to leave us with is that doing tummy time is very natural, and all human offspring rely on these natural tummy time activities in order to acquire the motor repertoire that the human hands. So this is a very natural thing and coming home wasn't made up by therapists. Now it did become, you know, this was why, you know, I turned it into a whole thing and there's other people that you know, focus on Jeremy Stein to because we're in the back to sleep culture. If we're not in the back sleep culture, we wouldn't need as much support and help. But we are and that's, you know, we're, that's important too. So it's, you know, tell me time was not made up. It just needed to become more highlighted because of our back to sleep recommendations. And because babies are, you know, prior to 1982 they're spending more than half their lives on their tummy. It really wasn't important to get intentional tummy time because babies were already

Unknown 2:39

Yeah, so their belly, you know, and that's an important you no point to make just that focus there. So yeah, it's something we've always done, but now you can at least highlight to say like, Okay, well, this is why we've always done it because our bodies knew that this is what we needed, you know, for those developmental cues. Alright, Michelle, so where can people find you in? You mentioned a couple of things you had talked about YouTube and Instagram. So where do where can people find you and reach out to

Unknown 3:08

you? The website is www dot temi time method.com. And there is information there. There's a really great little PDF handout you can print off there. There's also the provider directory. So people who have trained it's not there's a lot more people that are trained that haven't gotten listed on the website just because that's the whole thing to get people listed on the website. Yes, it is. So if you don't have somebody, you can't find somebody in your area. There's a couple of different options. One, you can contact me and I can help connect you to someone or you can work with someone remotely, because this can all be done remotely. And we really tested that I were doing that even before 2020 But what 2020 came back, it was so powerful and I was so appreciated the habits when you can work online with someone also get on Instagram, you know, go through the posts even no further back, because there's a lot of information there. I'm also from tiny babies on Instagram. So you can go and look on that one too, because I kind of infuse that her babies that have problems with oral dysfunction. And restrictions are usually always going to have trouble with tummy time as well just because of where those structures are located. Yep. around the neck. We talked about a woman getting that when because by the very nature of having oral dysfunction and restrictions, we know that there are restrictions and improper movement. So already going to kind of set the date for Trump. Yeah. So those are like the two things that you know, kind of go together come on YouTube adenoma Michelle Emmanuelle e m a n d e l and I also put my contact information on the telecom website. But please do also look through the provider directory and contact someone there. That's closer to you or somebody that you just kind of, you know, how you see people being like, Ooh, I think I could work really well with that person. Because we've got pictures up and kind of describes the practice that they're in and all kinds of OT PT IVLP, chiropractors, and all kinds of, and you mentioned that Martin rose, and he actually spoke at the tummy time summit that I did last year together was in 2001. And he did a great job talking about you know, we had all these different all the disciplinary practitioners talking about tummy time. And you've kept saying over and over throughout this interview, it's all connected. I really appreciate that because even though I know that it is all connected, and we can help parents connect these dots and make it easier for them to feel confident and satisfied and happy with their parenting and how they're able to help their babies problems, all things. And so I just get a big kick out of being able to do that. And I feel really blessed and thank you so much for having me and asking these great questions.

Unknown 6:15

Yes, I'm so appreciative that you did this. You've such a you offer so much to families and I know you're making a big difference and yes, in these infant lives, but I think too, it's it's kind of empowering the parents as well in like, these little things that you can do are literally setting your child up for success. It's really, really cool. So just that the frequent tummy time and like you get a gold star, you know, like and that's awesome. Those little wins. Yes, I had so much fun. speaking with you today again, thank you so so much. I'm gonna put all of all the links to where you live in the interwebs world on to our show notes so people can reach out to you. And again, thank you so much for chatting

Transcribed by https://otter.ai